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lambdaone 8 hours ago

This seems almost too good to be true, and the equipment is so simple that it would seem that this is a panacea. Where are the gotchas with this technology?

Clearly power capacity cost (scaling compressors/expanders and related kit) and energy storage cost (scaling gasbags and storage vessels) are decoupled from one another in this design; are there any numbers publicly available for either?

to11mtm 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I don't know numbers but I at least remember my paintball physics;

As far as the storage vessel, CO2 has much lower pressure demands than something like, say, hydrogen. On something like a paintball marker the burst disc (i.e. emergency blow off valve) for a CO2 tank is in the range of of 1500-1800PSI [0].

A compressed air tank that has a 62cubic inch, 3000PSI capacity, will have a circumference of 29cm and a length close to 32.7cm, compared to a 20oz CO2 tank that has a circumfrence of 25.5cm and a length of around 26.5cm [1]. The 20oz tank also weighs about as much 'filled' as the Compressed air tank does empty (although compressed air doesn't weigh much, just being through here).

And FWIW, that 62/3000 compressed air vs 20oz CO2 comparison... the 20oz of CO2 will almost certainly give you more 'work' for a full tank. When I was in the sport you needed more like a 68/4500 tank to get the same amount of use between fills.

Due to CO2's lower pressures and overall behavior, it's way cheaper and easier to handle parts of this; I'm willing to bet the blowoff valve setup could in fact even direct back to the 'bag' in this case, since the bag can be designed pessimistically for the pressure of CO2 under the thermal conditions. [2]

I think the biggest 'losses' will be in the energy around re-liquifying the CO2, but if the system is closed loop that's not gonna be that bad IMO. CO2's honestly a relatively easy and as long as working in open area or with a fume hood relatively safe gas to work with, so long as you understand thermal rules around liquid state [also 2] and use proper safety equipment (i.e. BOVs/burst discs/etc.)

[0] - I know there are 3k PSI burst discs out there but I've never seen one that high on a paintball CO2 tank...

[1] - I used the chart on this page as a reference: https://www.hkarmy.com/products/20oz-aluminum-co2-paintball-...

[2] - Liquid CO2 does not like rapid thermal changes or sustained extreme heat; This is when burst discs tend to go off. But it also does not work nearly as well in cold weather, especially below freezing. Where this becomes an issue is when for one reason or another liquid CO2 gets into the system. This can be handled in an industrial scenario with proper design I think tho.

api 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

So… it’s a compressed air battery but with a better working fluid than air.

I remember wondering about using natural gas or propane for this a long time ago. Not burning the gas but using it as a compressed gas battery. It liquifies easier than air, etc., but would be a big fire risk if there were leaks while this is not.

Seems neat.

to11mtm 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Not burning the gas but using it as a compressed gas battery. It liquifies easier than air, etc., but would be a big fire risk if there were leaks while this is not.

FWIW Back in the day, Ammonia was used for refrigeration because it had the right properties for that process; I mention that one because while it's not a fire risk it's definitely a health risk, also it's a bit more reactive (i.e. leaks are more likely to happen)

> Seems neat.

Agreed!

mr_toad an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Maybe use excess power to produce methane via the sabatier reaction, store that, and then burn it in turbines or use it in fuel cells when needed.

It’ll be interesting to see how the economics of these various solutions play out.

pfdietz 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Except you have to trap and recycle the uncompressed CO2, hence that enormous bag to hold all that gas. Color me skeptical.

With compressed air, you just release the air back to the atmosphere.

lambdaone 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Fantastic detail, thank you.

Alex2037 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

>cubic inch

>cm

>oz

scellus 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Thermal energy storage is one gotcha. It will eventually leak away, even if the CO2 stays in the container indefinitely, and then you have no energy to extract.

The 75% round-trip efficiency (for shorter time periods) quoted in other threads here is surprisingly high though.

crystal_revenge an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If you think this is simple, wait until you learn about oceans and forests do!

Trees are literally CO2 based solar batteries: they take CO2 + solar energy and store it as hydrocarbons and carbohydrates for later use. Every time you're sitting by a campfire you're feeling heat from solar energy. How much better does it get that free energy storage combined with CO2 scrubbing from the atmosphere!

When you look at the ocean, it's able to absorb 20-30% of all human caused CO2 emissions all with no effort on our behalf.

Unfortunately, these two solution are, apparently, "too good to be true" because we're increasingly reducing the ability of both to remove carbon. Parts of the Amazon are not net emitters of CO2 [0] and the ocean has limits to how much CO2 it can absorb before it starts reach its limit and become dangerously too acidic for ocean life.

0. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jul/14/amazon-r...

zahlman 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Well, it isn't going to sink enough CO2 to move the needle:

> If the worst happens and the dome is punctured, 2,000 tonnes of CO2 will enter the atmosphere. That’s equivalent to the emissions of about 15 round-trip flights between New York and London on a Boeing 777. “It’s negligible compared to the emissions of a coal plant,” Spadacini says. People will also need to stay back 70 meters or more until the air clears, he says.

So it's really just about enabling solar etc.

dmd 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It has nothing whatsoever to do with sinking CO2.

zahlman 5 hours ago | parent [-]

I understand this, but it coincidentally uses CO2 and it's hard for me to understand why the technology would sound "too good to be true" without imagining such a purpose.

api 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It’s a battery not a sequestration technology.