Remix.run Logo
vrosas 15 hours ago

I used to work for an OTT DSP adtech company i.e. a company that bid on TV ad spots in real time. The bidding platform was handling millions of requests per second, and we were one of the smaller fish in the sea. This system is very real. Your tv is watching what you’re watching. I built the attribution pipeline, which is what this is. If you go buy a product from one of these ads, this is how they track (attribute) it. Not to be alarmist butttt you have zero privacy.

AJ007 22 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

The TV thing isn't a new story, this was public. Everyone should have known about it and no one cared. (I could inset a boilerplate rant about Snowden here)

Those datacenters are not being built so that you can talk to ChatGPT all day, they are being built to generate and optimize ads. People who were not previously very suggestible are going to be. People who are suggestible will have their agency sold off to the highest bidder.

Avoid owning a TV? Your friends will. Maybe you can not have a FB/IG/WhatsApp account, only use cash, not have a mobile phone, but Meta (or Google, or Apple) can still detect your face in the background of photos/videos and know where you shop, travel and when.

everdrive 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is really interesting. Can you expand on this? What are OTT and DSP in this context?

Do you have a sense for what data is tracked and how it's used? Or if this sort of system is blind in certain cases? (eg: I hook up an N64 to the a/v ports -- will I get retro game ads on the TV?)

kleiba 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> you have zero privacy

Is this data linked to me personally in some way (e.g. though an account) or is it anonymous data?

everdrive 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

They can definitely work out who you are from your IP address. (or get close enough that the advertisers don't care) Not too many people are putting a VPN on their router and using throwaway accounts for their smart TVs. This might be difficult anyhow if your log into major services such as Amazon, etc, who will know who you are.

I'm not saying this is impossible to avoid, but it ends up being a LOT of work when the alternative is just not connecting the TV to the internet and using a laptop / Apple TV / etc. instead.

xnx 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Personally identifiable. Most smart TVs force a login to connect to the Internet or even use at all.

Ancalagon 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I understand the perils of a capitalist system but whyyy would you agree to build this

vrosas 11 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The perils of the capitalist system man. For what’s its worth, I left adtech many moons ago specifically because it is a horrifyingly depressing industry and very very not fun to talk about at parties.

godelski 7 hours ago | parent [-]

I'm glad you got out, but given your vantage point what would you say to those who feel pressured to do these types of jobs? Would you say more "it isn't worth it" or "if you have to... but get out as fast as possible" or something else?

notyourwork 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Money pays the bills. It’s probably not deeply rooted.

godelski 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Forgive me, but I'd actually like to hear vrosas's response or someone else with a similar background. I appreciate you trying to answer my question and help try to make me informed, but I don't want to hear speculation, especially the rather obvious ones. That's not helping, it just adds more noise to the conversation and discourages a response by them. We all know money pays the bills, no one needs to hear that. But hey, if that's what they say, then you'll be proven right. So let's wait and find out. I really do want to understand their mentality. I hope you do too because how else do we break the cycle?

freedomben 36 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

I've talked to a lot of engineers building DRM technology, and most of them are just a combination of swept up in the fun of the challenge, and also deeply bought into the idea of protecting intellectual property. I would say probably 90% don't see any philosophical issues with what they're building at all. If you can convince them of that, quite a few of them would probably try to get out, but it's quite an uphill battle. I forget who said the quote and the exact words, but something along the lines of it's very difficult to disabuse somebody of a belief when their livelihood depends on believing it.

As someone who was in an industry that I later discovered was doing things I wasn't personally ethically okay with, I would advise them to do similar to me. Start looking for a new gig and just get out as soon as you can.

Unfortunately as an individual there just isn't much you can do. There will always be someone willing to do the job that you aren't willing to do. Just get out and find something you can sleep at night doing

vrosas 35 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

My man’s not wrong. Adtech has some seriously cool engineering problems and scale. It’s its own form of high frequency trading mixed with everyone you’d imagine from a modern day Mad Men. Plus tons and tons and tons of money.

nospice 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It makes its creator the money they can spend buying the products they see in TV ads.

cephi 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

If someone is going to get paid to build it anyway, I might as well be the one getting paid for it.

catoc 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

This attitude is the reason “someone is going to get paid”.

If you see a unattended laptop in a coffeeshop, do you steal it because “someone will steal it, so it might as well be me”?

nertirs3 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Why stop here? We can also blame the people, who implemented such features on the TVs, the people who worked at companies, who used data acquired by these devices for advertisement, the people who worked on the mentioned ads for such devices and the people who bought products from companies, that spend money on such marketing techniques.

At this point you might as well blame the average guy for global warming...

acrump 2 hours ago | parent [-]

The average guy is exactly the person responsible for global warming. The evil of the world is just the meta accumulation of the average person following their mirco incentives.

cryptonym 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Where do you draw the line?

Ready to do anything for money as long as it seems legal-ish or your ass is covered by hierarchy?

abirch 3 hours ago | parent [-]

If something should not be done: make it illegal. Trying to have a gentlemen's agreement not to do something seems like a futile position.

cryptonym 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Having you own morale and ethics is far from futile. Each individual should be able to question the law and object taking part in something they don't agree, as long as it doesn't break the law.

Killing someone is legal in certain countries for different reasons (I'm not talking about war). Not sure I would like to get involved in that business, for instance if I don't agree on how and why people are sentenced to death in my country.

Some people are built with low ethics. Sure, if it's not made illegal, they'll always find someone to do it. Looks like in that case it might be illegal, as TV makers are sued.

Sharlin 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Yeah, there are reasons why "someone is going to do it anyway" is a classic example of an ethically unsound argument.

torstenvl 10 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It isn't ethically unsound. It's a commons/coordination problem. What is the optimal strategy in infinite-round prisoners dilemma with randomized opponents? The randomization effectively makes it an infinite series of one-round prisoners dilemma. So the best strategy is always to defect.

The only way you can change this is very high social trust, and all of society condemning anyone who ever defects.

jsrozner 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

If morality never factors into your own decisions, you don't get to be upset when it doesn't factor into other peoples'. In other words, society just sucks when everyone thinks this way, even if it true that resolving it is hard.

nativeit 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

This is called a “replacement excuse”. It’s a hallmark of nihilists and utilitarians, but I tend to prefer the more prosaic group noun, “jerks”.

torstenvl 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

This is an intellectually and morally deficient position to take. There is no moral principle in any system anywhere in the history of the universe that requires me to bind myself to a contract that nobody else is bound to.

We can all agree, as a society, "hey, no individual person will graze more than ten cows on the commons," and that's fine. And if we all agree and someone breaks their vow, then that is immoral. "Society just sucks when everyone thinks this way" indeed.

But if nobody ever agreed to it, and you're out there grazing all you're cattle, and Ezekiel is out there grazing all his cattle, and Josiah is out there grazing all his cattle, there is no reasonable ethical principle you could propose that would prevent me from grazing all my cattle too.

ReluctantLaser 38 minutes ago | parent [-]

> There is no moral principle in any system anywhere in the history of the universe that requires me to bind myself to a contract that nobody else is bound to.

Is there not? I don't feel this makes sense to me, as the conclusion seems to be "if everyone (or perhaps a large amount of people) do it, then it's not immoral". My immediate thought goes to moral systems that universalise an action, such that if everyone did it and it makes the world worse, then it's something that you should not do. That would be an example of a system that goes counter to what you say. Since morals are personal, you can still have that conclusion even if other people do not subscribe to the same set of moral beliefs that you have. Something can be immoral to you, and you will refuse to do it even if everyone else does.

> But if nobody ever agreed to it [...] there is no reasonable ethical principle you could propose that would prevent me from grazing all my cattle too.

Why not? I don't quite understand your conclusion. Why could the conclusion not be "I feel what everyone else is doing is wrong, and I will not do it myself"? Is it because it puts you at a disadvantage, and you believe that is unfair? Perhaps this is the "reasonable" aspect?

torstenvl 12 minutes ago | parent [-]

Your confusion is understandable. The way the terms "moral" and "ethical" are thrown around is sloppy in most vernacular. Generally, ethics refers to system-wide morality. E.g., I may feel that personal morality compels me to offer lower rates to clients, even though a higher rate may be acceptable under legal ethics. I tried to make that distinction clear in my post ("moral principle in any system") but perhaps I didn't do a good enough job.

The original poster was not referring to individual moral feelings, but to formal ethical systems subject to systematized logical thinking: "classic example of an ethically unsound argument."

There is no religious tradition, no system of ethics, no school of thought in moral philosophy, that is consistent with that position. The closest you might come is Aristotelian virtue ethics. But it would be a really strained reading that would result in the position that opting out of commons mismanagement is required. Aristotle specifically said that being a fool is not a virtue. If anything, a virtue ethics lens would compel someone to try to establish formal community rules to prevent the tragedy of the commons.

godelski 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It is definitely ethically unsound and it is definitely a common example even related to Nazis. Similar to "just following orders". Which I'll remind everyone, will not save you in a court of law[0]...

You are abdicating your own moral responsibility on the assumption of a deterministic reality.

The literal textbook version of this ethical issue, one you'll find in literally any intro to ethics class is

  If I don't do this job then somebody else will. The only difference is that I will not get paid and if I get paid I will do good with that money where as if somebody else gets paid they might not.
Sometimes a variant will be introduced with a direct acknowledgement of like donating 10% of your earnings to charity to "offset" your misgivings (ᶜᵒᵘᵍʰ ᴱᶠᶠᵉᶜᵗᶦᵛᵉ ᴬˡᵗʳᵘᶦˢᵐ ᶜᵒᵘᵍʰ).

But either way, it is you abdicating your personal responsibility and making the assumption that the job will be done regardless. But think about the logic here. If people do not think like you then the employer must then start offering higher wages in order to entice others. As there is some function describing people's individual moral lines and their desire for money. Even if the employer must pay more you are then helping deter that behavior because you are making it harder to implement. Alternatively the other person that does the job might not be as good at the job as you, making the damage done less than had you done the job. It's not hard to see that often this will result in the job not even existing as truthfully these immoral jobs are scraping the bottom of the barrel. Even if you are making the assumption that the job will be done it would be more naive to assume the job is done to the same quality. (But kudos on you for the lack of ego and thinking you aren't better than other devs)

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders

20after4 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Most of those convicted at the Nuremberg trials eventually had their sentences commuted and only served a fraction of their time. Only a few were convicted and executed. Justice rarely prevails.

Bud 3 hours ago | parent [-]

[dead]

torstenvl 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Objectively incorrect. There is no reasonable argument that it's ethically unsound. The fact that you immediately Godwin'd should have been your first clue.

bannana2033 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> will not save you in a court of law

Not in the USA. LEO or ICE - or even some judges misuse and never are punished. Qualified immunity.

Moral is different story. Too many people in HN work in Google or Apple. That by itself if immoral.

godelski 4 hours ago | parent [-]

  > even some
Some is a keyword.

Some doesn't change the law.

You're right to push back in case I intended something different. But I'll state this clearly: those LEO, ICE agents, and judges are committing crimes.

But the fact that not all criminals are punished or prosecuted does not change the laws either.

What I'm concerned about is people becoming disenfranchised and apathetic. Dismissing the laws we have that does punish LEO, ICE agents, and judges for breaking the laws. To take a defeatist attitude. Especially in this more difficult time where that power is being abused more than ever. But a big reason it is being able to be abused is because a growing apathetic attitude by people. By people giving up.

So I don't know about you and your positions. I don't know if you're apathetic or invested. All I know is a random comment from a random person. It isn't much to go on. But I hope you aren't and I hope you don't spread apathy, intentionally or not.

whacko_quacko 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Care to articulate them?

avsteele 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

If you want a consequentialist answer:

If, for ethical reasons, fewer people were willing to take these jobs, then either salaries would have to rise or the work would be done less effectively.

If salaries rise, the business becomes more expensive and harder to scale. If effectiveness drops, the systems are less capable of extracting/using people’s data.

Either way, refusing these jobs imposes real friction on the surveillance model.

If you want a deontological answer:

You have a responsibility not to participate in unethical behavior, even if someone else would.

Sharlin 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The fact that it can be used to "justify" almost anything. It obviously doesn't work as a defense in the court, and neither does it work as a justification for doing legal but unethical things.

c16 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Would love to know what are the best things we can do to prevent this sort of tracking in general. PiHole? Don't re-use emails? On a scale of 1 to fucked are we cooked?