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bilekas 4 days ago

> GitHub stated that it has canceled the price increase after reviewing developer feedback. It added that it will take time to listen to customers and partners.

I get the feeling they got the feedback that their runners are not as indispensable to developers as they thought and realized they would lose a significant amount of users. Now if only they would listen to the feedback about windows 11 and their forced copilot we might be onto something.

embedding-shape 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

I wonder if Microsoft will ever get that asking users before making changes can help them avoid looking bad in public.

Maybe half of all clients I work with use GitHub Actions for CI (the rest basically all use Jenkins), most of those using Actions use self-hosted runners for performance and security reasons, almost all of them reached out to me asking how difficult it would be to move away from GitHub Actions yet continue using GitHub.

Do you think these companies now suddenly stop wanting to move away from GitHub Actions because Microsoft suddenly changed their mind? I don't think so, probably less priority, but it will happen, because now the cat is out of the bag.

If they'd just do user research before announcing changes and not use announcements as "testing the waters", I'm sure they'd see a lot less churn. But I guess some number counting team somewhere in Microsoft figured out they'd make more money by charging people to run software on their own hardware, so maybe I'm just dreaming.

Xylakant 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Fun thing is that almost every other CI as a service provider charges you in some shape or form for self hosted runners. CircleCI limits the number of self-hosted Job Running in parallel based on your plan and charges a fixed base fee per seat.

So moving away from GHA will not make self-hosted runners free, they’ll move into a different pricing structure that may or may not be beneficial.

And I think charging for self-hosted runners is actually fine. They’re not free for the provider either - log aggregation, caching of artifacts, runner scheduling, implementing the runner software etc are non-trivial problems for any larger CI system.

So I’m actually fine with the proposed change since it also gives me the power as a customer to say “hey, I’m paying for this, fix it.”

crote 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

The problem is that they are charging a per-minute fee, and a fee at the same order-of-magnitude as actually running the tests. If you're offering cloud-hosted runners for $0.002/minute, asking that same $0.002/minute as an orchestrator fee for self-hosted runners is just insulting.

Charging for self-hosted runners is indeed not a huge deal, and I bet they wouldn't have gotten the same kind of backlash if they charged for it via a per-seat, per-run, per-gigabyte, or per-log-line fee. And if GHA hadn't been so poorly maintained...

Xylakant 4 days ago | parent [-]

Any model that charges for self-hosted runner is going to feel unfair to someone. Per seat pricing is better for small orgs with a lot of CI minutes, per-run pricing would be good for orgs with few, long runs, per minute pricing is nicer for orgs with many small runs.

In my observation the critisicm was strongly dominated by outrage over the actual fact.

hobofan 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I also think its fine and fair to charge for the general GHA infrastructure that one would also be using with self-hosted runners.

I suspect that they weren't looking to make money off of those charges, but rather use that as a forcing function to push more usage of their managed runner (which are higher margin) which didn't work out. Rather than everyone saying "damn that makes alternatives financially unattactive", a good chunk of the feedback was "sure I'll pay those charges as long as I don't have to use the shitty managed runners".

flowerthoughts 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Depends if they are using another CI provider or running Jenkins themselves.

But also, Circle CI would be a known cost change. Right now, the only thing you know is that GitHub wants to start charging money. You have no idea what new pricing model they come up with.

Xylakant 4 days ago | parent [-]

Self-hosting all of your CI is yet another tradeoff. The software comes for free (if you're using Free Software, that is), but you now have operational overhead. I'm not saying it's an unreasonable move, but it's also not a free swap

ClikeX 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The cost of the control plan for Github and the cost of their runners are not equal. Yet this new plan seems to say a self-hosted minute is counted the same as a hosted minute, since self-hosted minutes count towards the 2000 included minutes.

chrisandchris 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Gitlab enters the room, where self-hosted runners are as free as in free beer (maintenance yes, but no limit on runners and no pricing expect on a per-user basis).

misnome 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Yet.

Gitlab has proven in the past perfectly happy to hike prices above GitHub, after attracting enough switchers.

Xylakant 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Yes, gitlab does still have free self-hosted runners. OTOH, github has a free organisation plan and gitlab doesn't. So yes, strictly speaking self-hosted runners are free, but you're paying for the dev-seats.

joshstrange 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> So I’m actually fine with the proposed change since it also gives me the power as a customer to say “hey, I’m paying for this, fix it.”

I’m paying for GitHub Action now and there is zero recourse (other than leaving). Giving them money doesn’t change anything.

I’d be more willing to pay if GH Actions wasn’t so flakey and frustrating (for hosted or self-hosted runners, I use both). At least self-hosted runners are way cheaper _and_ have better performance.

Xylakant 4 days ago | parent [-]

> I’d be more willing to pay if GH Actions wasn’t so flakey and frustrating (for hosted or self-hosted runners, I use both).

This is indeed a reason I do consider leaving GHA. The underinvestment into this part of the product shows. But they also did announce quite some investment into new and (for us relevant) features alongside the pricing change, so I'll have a look at how this changes with some sorely needed work on the product.

numbsafari 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

We already pay for the “control plane” for GHA, though.

You might as well say that we should be paying per PR and Issue because, well, that part can’t just be free, you know?

Xylakant 4 days ago | parent [-]

How do you pay? Because the basic organization plan is free and gives access to GHA and includes 2000 free minutes.

If you upgrade the plan, you get more minutes for free - which can be consumed by the cost for free runners. They haven't specified at which rate a self-hosted runner consumes the free minutes, but at least for us, the change will largely consume free minutes.

> You might as well say that we should be paying per PR and Issue because, well, that part can’t just be free, you know?

You're misrepresenting what I said. I said, I'm fine with this for these reasons. It's a statement about me, not about what you should do nor what you should consider fine.

I pay (quite a bit) for GH because I do receive a service that's worth it, at least for now. And I'd rather see that GHA is something that makes them money than become something that is second-rate and lingers, just as it did before they made this announcement.

9cb14c1ec0 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Rent a dedicated server, install gitea on it, set up a gitea action runner. Private, secure, cheap git hosting with 99% compatible actions.

markus_zhang 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

MSFT used to be extremely good about that in the 90s. From the book Showstoppers: MSFT sent not one, but three batches of NT 3.1 beta to external developers before the final release.

The idea nowadays is iterate fast and break things (as long as it’s not your wallet or your leg).

anothernewdude 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I've already jumped ship. Switching source control host was actually pretty easy. Builds still working just fine.

thomasnno 4 days ago | parent [-]

Great! Who did you jump to ?

embedding-shape 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

The most obvious "all-in-one" package is GitLab, if you have the hardware for it and don't mind bit of bloat but all the needed features in one package.

Personally, for smaller scale projects that still require collaboration over the web, Gitea/Forgejo + Woodpecker CI has been a really simple, lightweight and easy to maintain solution.

ascendantlogic 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

I really love Gitlab CI. I don't miss managing my own Gitlab server but I definitely prefer their CI product to actions.

germandiago 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I am self host8ng forgejo. What can other CIs do that I could potentially need that is absent?

embedding-shape 4 days ago | parent [-]

If you're using the built-in Actions/CI/whatever it's called, and it works for you, then that's great, don't try to change :)

I guess I'm mostly still with Woodpecker because of having used it for years already, don't think there is anything major missing with either approaches, but was a while ago I looked deeper into it, maybe someone else here knows more (recent) details.

anothernewdude 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Gitlab. Required very few CI/CD changes to be honest.

grub5000 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Now if only they would listen to the feedback about windows 11 and their forced copilot we might be onto something.

You can just uninstall Copilot? It’s nowhere on my Surface Laptop 7 with W11.

bilekas 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

It has reappeared on mine after mandatory windows updates which is frustrating and also it looks like it will be arriving on my TV soon too without the option to remove it.

> https://www.tomshardware.com/service-providers/tv-providers/...

So it's not a stretch to assume they will continue to force it in their OS.

evilduck 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Why should anyone have to take action against it? Good products don't need to be forced upon users, an obnoxious ad in one of the dozen places Windows shows advertising would have sufficed. People even willingly fork over cash for ChatGPT and Claude and those don't even have OS ad placements or forced installs.

newdee 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

For now

nerdjon 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That would be my guess, I know personally yesterday I finally setup Forgejo and today I plan to evaluate its runners or even just using a dedicated CI like woodpecker.

Not fully sure what I will do regarding any open source repo's yet, but at least anything private I am already in the process of moving away.

This was something I already wanted to do for privacy concerns (especially possibility using private repo's to train AI) so this was just the push I needed.

klaussilveira 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

We jumped ship too. Forgejo has been amazing.

p_j_w 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Now if only they would listen to the feedback about windows 11 and their forced copilot

I think they'll take the opposite lesson. Copilot hasn’t lost them many users because Windows users are locked into the ecosystem and unable to leave. They will try to get GitHub into a position similar to that and then try this shit again.

amluto 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I feel like I could specify and vibe-code a CI workflow system that would be dramatically better (for a single organization’s workflow) than GitHub Actions. And hosting it would be barely more complex than hosting a GitHub Actions self-hosted runner.

The stack would be:

Postgres, as a job queue and job status tracker. The entire control plane state lives in here. Even in a fairly large org, the transaction rate would be very, very low.

An ingestion agent. Monitors the repository for pushes and PRs.

A job agent. This runs a in a sandbox and gets the inputs from GitHub and runs what is effectively a workflow step. It doesn’t get any secrets — everything it wants to do is either accomplished in the form of JSON output, blob output, or an org-specific API for doing things that don’t fit the JSON output model.

A thing to handle results. This is a simple service, connected to the database, that consumes the JSON job results and does whatever is needed (which would mostly consist of commenting on PRs or updating a CI status dashboard). For CD workflows, the build artifacts would be sent to whatever registry they go to.

A configuration system, which would be some files somewhere, maybe in a git repository that is not the repository that CI is being done on. (GitHub’s model of Actions config being in-band in the repository is IMO entirely wrong.)

And that’s about it.

I’m not suggesting that I could duplicate the GitHub Actions in a weekend. But I wouldn’t want to. This would be single-tenant, and it would support exactly the features that the organization actually uses. Heck, even par-for-the-course things like SSO aren’t needed because the entire system would have no users per se :)

bilekas 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

I'm not sure why this is so downvoted given the climate.

I guess it's the AI driven approach. These things, critical infra, are always done better with a few eyes in it.. introducing irresponsible ideas of "I'll just remake it with Claude without knowing the underlying infra" can hit a few nerves, also add a few lower level bugs, exploits etc.

I don't think it's fair for the downvoted but I think it's worth discussing where we draw the line.

Edit: I think AI is a tool not a replacement.

amluto 4 days ago | parent [-]

Sigh. I should probably have clarified the vibe-coded part. I think this entire project could he done with rather little total code, and that the code could be written entirely by humans without an immense programmer-hour commitment or by humans with AI help (fully human-in-the-loop) even faster.

My actual point is that GitHub Actions is kind of an unusual product. Many big cloud things solve what seems to be a simple problem but the actual requirements are much harder than they might appear, and replacing them well wouldn’t be very complex. But IMO GitHub Actions in particular is a bunch of complexity that does not actually solve the problem that needs solving very well; a small bespoke solution would actually be better.

Cheer2171 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

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