You're absolutely right: an "indirection data structure" is necessary. Freezing the data is the least interesting part - it doesn't give you any of the benefits typically associated with immutable data structures in functional languages. That's my point - Python is shipping a half solution that's being mistaken for a proper one.

You think Python developers are going to roll their own HAMT on top of frozendicts? Or are they just gonna make copies? Personally, I'd just use pyrsistent which seems to get it right.

▲ compressedgas 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> You think Python developers are going to roll their own HAMT

Python already has an HAMT implementation in use by the contextvars module.

▲ rented_mule 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's a little early to say that "Python is shipping" anything related to this. The PEP is still in draft status and it may be modified (as it was three hours ago) or even rejected. The article says it is likely to be accepted, but that has not happened yet. That also means there is time to comment on the PEP in the discussion it links to if you'd like.

https://peps.python.org/pep-0814/

▲ BiteCode_dev 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

pyrsistent is super slow, though. Just ran a quick benchmark:

  - Creation - 8-12x slower  
  - Lookup - 22-27x slower  
  - Contains check - 30-34x slower  
  - Iteration - 5-14x slower  
  - Merge - 32-158x slower

Except at 10k+ items, batchup dates on 100K+ items or inserting 100 keys.

This is rarely the case in practice, most dictionaries and dict operations are small, if you have a huge dict, you probably should be chunking your load or delegating that to infra.

Not to mention pyrsistent's API is incompatible with dicts, so you can't pass it to external code without conversion.

You'd better have an incredible ROI to justify that.

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instig007 2 days ago | parent [-]

> pyrsistent is super slow, though

Since when is Python about speed?

> Just ran a quick benchmark

Where's the code? Have you observed the bottleneck call?

> Except at 10k+ items, batchup dates on 100K+ items or inserting 100 keys.

> This is rarely the case in practice

Where's the stats on the actual practice?

> You'd better have an incredible ROI to justify that.

The ROI being: fearless API design where 1) multiple instances of high level components are truly independent and could easily parallelize, 2) calling sites know that they keep the original data intact and that callees behave within the immutability constraints, 3) default func inputs and global scope objects are immutable without having to implement another PEP, 4) collections are hashable in general.

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BiteCode_dev 2 days ago | parent [-]

Clearly the ROI is perfect for you.

I won't waste more of your time.

	▲	instig007 2 days ago \| parent [-]
		It's perfect for most Python developers actually, not just for myself, contrary to your "in practice" claim.