| ▲ | koakuma-chan 4 days ago |
| > Career-motherhood conflict Anyone tried to move away from this model where there is two people of opposite gender, living together as a family, working, and raising child(ren) at the same time? Why not have dedicated facilities that handle raising children professionally? |
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| ▲ | prosody 4 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| Kibbutzim in Israel from the 40s-80s tried a fairly radical project of communal child-rearing. It failed when the generation raised there rejected the choice to continue the project. Viz: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2011/feb/19/kibbutz... |
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| ▲ | breppp 4 days ago | parent [-] | | It was at least a good source for psychological studies. In relation to the article discussed, one of the effects this had was reducing marriage rates. The theorized reason is these children all grew together and therefore had sexual aversion similar to siblings | | |
| ▲ | lostmsu 4 days ago | parent [-] | | But children spend a lot of time together if they attend nursery/preschool as well. And that does not seem to be producing the problem. | | |
| ▲ | breppp 4 days ago | parent [-] | | These children spent all their time with each other, including days and nights, for 18 years, having only a hour or two with their parents a day. It's called the Westermarck Effect, but with anything in Psychology you can take it with a grain of salt |
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| ▲ | edu 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| We already have daycare and schools, that take care of kids for 8h. And then there's the thing that usually parents like to spend time with their children. It would be simply better (probably harder) to improve society so one could have a great work-life balance. |
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| ▲ | lostmsu 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I think parents don't usually like to spend time with their children. I imagine that's the reason why a lot of people are childless these days. If your work and/or hobbies are very exciting, spending time with children is a downgrade. | | |
| ▲ | graemep 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Most people do not have such exciting work or hobbies, and most parents love spending time with their children. I can understand people with really fascinating jobs that they care about deeply making that decision, but very few people have such great jobs or hobbies. Yes, if you are an academic, or a monk/nun, or something else you deeply believe in, but for most people there is very little that is more rewarding than having children. | | |
| ▲ | lostmsu 4 days ago | parent [-] | | How would you explain the drop of birthrates in Nordic countries then? | | |
| ▲ | graemep 3 days ago | parent [-] | | I have no idea as I do not know those cultures. There are many possible explanations. However, there are not going to be factors specific to some countries. As it is so widespread its most likely its a common factor or factors. The underlying reasons are probably not that different from those in South Korea. "By the time a child turns ten, their mother will have seen her earnings fall by an average of 66 percent, considerably higher than the earnings penalty in countries including the US (31 percent), UK (44 percent), and Sweden (32 percent)" So Sweden is not as bad as SK, but slightly worse than the US on that particular economic factor. "But South Korea is even worse. Almost 80 percent of children attend a hagwon, a type of private cram school operating in the evenings and on weekends" I think that sort of thing is a factor too, and, again, in many countries. |
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| ▲ | koakuma-chan 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > And then there's the thing that usually parents like to spend time with their children. As another commenter pointed out, I don’t have children, and don’t plan to ever have children, so I may not have the full picture here. But spending time with their children seems to be just a selfish want of parents, and not something that is beneficial to children themselves. I think people need to think of their children first, and not only of themselves. | | |
| ▲ | eudamoniac 4 days ago | parent [-] | | I'm not sure if this is sarcasm, but parents spending time with children is very important to the children. For example, it generally leads to better outcomes for a child to remain with their meth addict parents or their occasionally homeless parents or their violent drunk parents, than for the child to enter foster care. Being away from parents is just that bad. Homeschooled children, also, have higher educational attainments on average, by a lot. I think you'll find that if you come up with your own proxy measurement for this question it will also point towards more parent time being better. | | |
| ▲ | koakuma-chan 4 days ago | parent [-] | | For one, meth addict or homeless or violent drunk parents would probably not be able to do homeschooling. Then, homeschooling is probably only better because it is 1 on 1, and not 1 on dozens as it is in public schools. For me, it doesn't make sense that parents are somehow magically better than professional educators, if you assume that the professional educators are actually motivated and care (there are people in this thread who are arguing that generally parents care and professionals don't). | | |
| ▲ | graemep 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > For one, meth addict or homeless or violent drunk parents would probably not be able to do homeschooling. Two distinct groups of people who for different reasons show kids do better with parents. The point is parents are better at raising kids an people who are trained but not family. > Then, homeschooling is probably only better because it is 1 on 1, and not 1 on dozens as it is in public schools. Its not all one to one though. Even when it is one to one it is almost always far fewer hours than at school. A lot of school kids get one to one attention of top of classes (tuition for teenagers has really taken off here in the UK in recent years). My kids did classes and online courses and taught themselves for some subjects and still did a lot better in those subjects than school kids do. There are advantages to being outside a system individualisation, efficient use or time, learning study skills and self-discipline, etc. > if you assume that the professional educators are actually motivated and care Most do, some do not care (they should not be in the profession, but they exist) or are demotivated by the system them work in. They are also often constrained by the school system. They are pressured to hit metrics which are often not in the best interest of children (especially in the long term). It tends to lead to a lot of studying the exam rather than the subject, for example. | |
| ▲ | 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | logicchains 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| >Anyone tried to move away from this model where there is two people of opposite gender, living together as a family, working, and raising child(ren) at the same time? Why not have dedicated facilities that handle raising children professionally? People in general have a built-in biological incentive to treat their own biological children well. People child-rearing just as a job generally treat children worse than biological parents, and the empirical evidence supports this (e.g. the earlier children enter paid childcare, the worse their outcomes on average). Only a small minority of extremely moral people treat other people's kids as well as their own biological children. |
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| ▲ | justonceokay 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Like an orphanage? I think people like raising their children |
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| ▲ | koakuma-chan 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Yes, like an orphanage. I understand that some people may like raising children, but that ignores the fact that most people don’t receive education how to do that properly. | | |
| ▲ | stephen_g 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | As bad as that sometimes is, have you heard the stories of people who grew up in orphanages? In general it was worse than having below-average parents… That’s a big part of why a lot of the world has moved from institutional care to foster systems. | |
| ▲ | logicchains 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | >that most people don’t receive education how to do that properly. Incentives matter far more than education; parents have a built-in biological incentive to care for their children, so on average they put in more effort, that's why children at orphanages do so poorly, and homeschooled children do better on standardised testing than public schooled children. | | |
| ▲ | koakuma-chan 4 days ago | parent [-] | | This is a good point. You probably heard people complain about "Asian parents," but could it be that those "Asian parents" were actually good? |
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| ▲ | Yossarrian22 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The word “some” is doing some heavy lifting there | |
| ▲ | justonceokay 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I suppose in this facility they would have special access to the knowledge and practice of how to raise a child | | |
| ▲ | nomdep 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Maybe they could go there only half of the day and we could call those places "Schools" |
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| ▲ | jacquesm 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Fortunately there are still some things that are off-limits for the state. | |
| ▲ | nake89 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | This sounds completely dystopian. |
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| ▲ | Propelloni 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The German Democratic Republic had state-run universal daycare from ages 0 to 18 (Krippe, Garten, POS, FDJ). It was commonly seen as a bad thing by western societies, because it gave ample opportunity to indoctrinate. PS: POS and FDJ are not really daycare but school and youth org, but they provided services exceeding what we connect with those ideas. |
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| ▲ | koakuma-chan 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > It was commonly seen as a bad thing by western societies, because it gave ample opportunity to indoctrinate. If you are a child living under parents, your parents also have ample opportunity to indoctrinate. There is zero viewpoint diversity. | | |
| ▲ | em-bee 3 days ago | parent [-] | | that is the official reason why germany does not allow homeschooling. |
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| ▲ | BigTTYGothGF 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > It was commonly seen as a bad thing by western societies because it gave ample opportunity to indoctrinate. One wonders how much of this viewpoint was itself indoctrinated. |
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| ▲ | aurareturn 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Why not have dedicated facilities that handle raising children professionally?
So 2 people have sex, deliver the baby straight to this facility, and then done?Who pays for it? How often can the parents see the kids? How much influence can the parents have on the kids? How does this differ from schools? |
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| ▲ | charlie90 4 days ago | parent [-] | | There will likely be no parents in this future scenario. Artificial wombs will be used. |
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| ▲ | liveoneggs 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Yes various societies have tried it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980s%E2%80%931990s_Romanian_o... |
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| ▲ | poisonborz 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This is the main topic of Brave New World. |
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| ▲ | js8 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| If we established a decent universal basic income, some families could opt spending time raising kids instead of working. |
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| ▲ | graemep 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| So why would you have children? I love spending time with my kids. What is the point of having them if I do not see them? I feel really lucky I worked from home and home educated my kids, and feel most people already miss a significant amount of the joy of having kids because of work and school. Your idea would make a significant part of it into all of it. |
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| ▲ | koakuma-chan 4 days ago | parent [-] | | The point is to have the government control child birth and raising of children, so that the country does not have issues with population numbers, education, and other societal issues that arise from parents doing a bad job. | | |
| ▲ | graemep 4 days ago | parent [-] | | If the government wants that they can have the kids. What is my incentive to have children in that system? We have far more problems caused by governments doing a bad job than parents doing a bad job. In general parents do a far better job than government employees do. | | |
| ▲ | koakuma-chan 4 days ago | parent [-] | | > If the government wants that they can have the kids. What is my incentive to have children in that system? You may not have the incentive, but the country population will decline if you don't. If you are a government, I'm sure there is a number of ways to make people have children, for example https://nhentai.net/g/609087/. If you are something like Russia or Ukraine, you can force women to have children, just like you force men to go to war. > We have far more problems caused by governments doing a bad job than parents doing a bad job. In general parents do a far better job than government employees do. But yes, if there is no way to make education workers do good job, then I guess this system will not work. | | |
| ▲ | BigTTYGothGF 4 days ago | parent [-] | | > for example https://nhentai.net/g/609087/. For those who might be at work, or are otherwise sensible, this links to a hentai manga called "Vacation in a room you can't leave until you have sex", the cover of which has a picture of a naked lady with implausible anatomy; the tags include but are not limited to "rape" and "incest". One wonders the reasons behind the choice of this particular example. | | |
| ▲ | koakuma-chan 4 days ago | parent [-] | | First off, it's a doujinshi—not a manga. Then, I don't know why it is tagged as "rape" and "incest" as it has neither. If you read it carefully: > Next, we'll talk about the "room you can't leave until you have sex" > which as introduced as a measure to address the declining marriage rate and birthrate I don't see why I wouldn't use this as an example. | | |
| ▲ | BigTTYGothGF 3 days ago | parent [-] | | "Doujinshi" is a method of distribution, not a medium. > I don't know why it is tagged as "rape" and "incest" as it has neither Incest: The dramatis personae (https://nhentai.net/g/609087/4/, mostly SFW if your boss doesn't mind fully-clothed underboobs) introduces the characters as step-siblings. (And page 11 the male character refers to the female character as "family". Rape: The premise is inherently rapey as one is not allowed to withdraw consent after entering the room. Also the bottom of page 15 the male does not look like he had consented to the events of that page and the previous. | | |
| ▲ | koakuma-chan 3 days ago | parent [-] | | > Incest: The dramatis personae (https://nhentai.net/g/609087/4/, mostly SFW if your boss doesn't mind fully-clothed underboobs) introduces the characters as step-siblings. (And page 11 the male character refers to the female character as "family". It's not "incest" if they are not blood-related. > Rape: The premise is inherently rapey as one is not allowed to withdraw consent after entering the room. As I understand it, entering the room does not constitute giving consent, and one can withdraw their consent any time, which the protagonist chose not to do. > Also the bottom of page 15 the male does not look like he had consented to the events of that page and the previous. The way I read it, especially with previous two pages in mind, it appears to me that he does not mind. |
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| ▲ | FridayoLeary 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| >Why not have
dedicated facilities that handle raising children professionally? Because to even contemplate that means dismissing the entire notion of a parent child bond. Of course socialism, with it's inherent disdain of existing social structures have tried collective living, famously some kibbutzim in israel tried it, but most sensible people are horrified by such an idea. I want to let it go but i can't. The suggestion that trained professionals would somehow do a better job of raising a child then parents would is terrible. It's one of the worst ideas i've ever seen here. |
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| ▲ | gedy 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Nitpicking but I hate how "career" is always used when talking about women's choices, when it's just a damn job. Most women work because they have to. It's not a "career". |
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| ▲ | graemep 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Most men too. One thing that is missing in these conversations is men's role in child care. The two big steps we need to take are equal parenting and family friendly working hours. As a single dad in the UK its obvious to me that a lot of people still do not expect men to be raising kids or for a man to be the primary parent (which I was even before I divorced). | |
| ▲ | delichon 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | It's possible that more people who have "careers" than "jobs" would keep working if they didn't have to, but my guess is, not by much. |
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| ▲ | _bohm 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| In New York, we are trying to implement universal childcare. |
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| ▲ | beepbooptheory 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| While a little weird to think about seriously, I always liked the model in The Dispossessed. |
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| ▲ | smusamashah 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Why would one have kids in first place if its to only send them off to a 'dedicated child raising facility'? Even in some dystopian future where there are dedicated facilities that raise people, I can only think of labour and military being raised. |
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| ▲ | nomdep 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I'm 99% certain you don't have kids. The remaining 1% is reserved for the possibility that you do, and you just hate them and everything they stand for. Otherwise you would realize what dystopian hellscape of an idea you are suggesting. |
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| ▲ | FridayoLeary 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Here's a recent comment thread from the parent. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46125949 >I currently think the
opposite—that humanity is inherently
flawed, and that the vast majority of
humans will always live miserably. His user name has a korean vibe to it. If my suspicions are correct then they could be exhibit a of the problem SK is facing. | | |
| ▲ | BigTTYGothGF 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > His user name has a korean vibe to it. What makes you say that? To me it's clearly Japanese (the "-chan" by itself is a dead giveaway) and there's way too many open syllables to feel Korean. | |
| ▲ | koakuma-chan 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | My username does not have anything to do with Korea. It is a reference to a Japanese anime Giji Harem—it is really good and funny if you are into anime, I recommend. |
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| ▲ | 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | dominotw 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| yes soviet union tried that. |
