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imglorp 3 days ago

The US desperately needs some competition in the EV motorcycle space.

There are several players but they still seem boutique and and way over what the price should be.

Workaccount2 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

This is actually an area I am incredibly interested in, an area that I have pretty deep technical knowledge of (power electronics, my day job), and and area where I would _love_ to make products in. I'm a total ebike evangelist just ask anyone who has ever commented anything to me when I am on my ebike.

But I sadly know enough to know that doing hardware in the USA is nightmare level expensive and difficult. I could pull every string and empty every account into making an eBike with twice the cost and half the performance of it's Chinese counterpart. I'd much rather just make an app that takes a cut for connecting people with eBikes that fit their needs/desires.

0cf8612b2e1e 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

My quick searching is finding that 3% of US vehicles are motorcycles.

Sure, more competition is good, but given their safety profile (terrible!) I suspect motorcycles are a secondary mode of transportation rather than a primary. Mopeds for intra city usage seems more high demand than highway speed vehicles that have to drive alongside SUVs.

willio58 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

> but given their safety profile (terrible!)

I feel like there's kind of a cycle of unsafety with motorcycles on the social level in the U.S.

There's a societal understanding in the U.S. that motorcycles are unsafe, which results in an increased number of people purchasing motorcycles with the intention of showing off how unsafe (dangerous) they can be. And the cycle perpetuates.

Obviously, motorcycles are inherently less safe in certain ways, like your body is going to fly if you get into a high-speed collision, and that's pretty much unavoidable. But when I visit European countries, it seems motorcycle culture is _so_ much healthier. They are mostly seen as simple transportation tools, a far cry from what I regularly see in the U.S.

secstate 3 days ago | parent [-]

I suspect at least part of this has to do with the fact that, relative to four wheeled vehicles, you can buy "impressive" motorcycles for relatively little cash compared to say, buying a truly performant sports car. Combine this low cost with an unrelentingly social pressure to show off, mix in one part social media and two parts a belief that you are invincible and I believe you'll have your cocktail of poor outcomes on fast two-wheeled vehicles.

euroderf 3 days ago | parent [-]

But also, car drivers have this unfortunate tendency "to not see" motorcycles. Technical means like headlight interrupters can improve noticeability but are prohibited in some jurisdictions.

chrisweekly 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Mopeds are at least as dangerous to operate as motorcycles.

johnnyanmac 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The US would rather pay off to tarriffs the competition than properly compete. Even the Ford CEO drove A Chinese EV for 6 months and he didn't want to give it up. Also indirectly he didn't think Ford could compete, calling it an "existential threat"

https://www.businessinsider.com/ford-ceo-driving-xiaomi-su7-...

It's really stupid because Xiaomi isn't making anything truly revolutionary. It's just a lot of consumer thoughtful ideas, not ones that try to shove ads and subscriptions in your dang car. And this is our "existential threat" to a century of manufacturing. Wonder how Henry would feel.

(and the tarriffs stuff isn't just 2025. That's been there through all of Biden's admin. Good idea... If they used those 5 years to actually ramp up production).

imglorp 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Full agree on these auto maker comments. The US makers for decades have dug in their heels on any new features: look how long it took to get basic safety features like seatbelts, airbags, and crumple zones. Then delay wipers. Then it took decades to add a $1 part like an aux input for the stereo. And of course all the super poor EV gestures.

But I was talking about motorcycles. There are some new brands like Zero and some old ones like Harley (the "live wire" disaster). They need a fire lit to make real bikes at real prices.

mmooss 3 days ago | parent [-]

It's not a characteristic of US automakers but of the status quo in any competition. The status quo power wants to keep things the same - that's how they got there, that's how they are making money, and any change destabilizes things and 'wastes' money: you're already (selling cars), what will you gain by innovating?

The revisionist power wants to become status quo. They need to beat the status quo power and they won't do it following the status quo's rulebook. They look for anything that might differentiate them, make them appealing to even narrow groups - they are trying to get a foothold and grow from there. They are cool, innovative, and disruptive, people think.

As soon as the revisionist becomes status quo, they adopt the status quo behaviors. Look at formerly revisionist SV.

Sevii 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There is no way we can compete in a global free market while paying 4x as much for labor. At a comparable level of technology and organizational skill the Chinese will win every competition, labor costs are that important. They have already caught up.

germinalphrase 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

“ The first archetype, Euro premiums, has an average labor cost of $2,232 per vehicle and includes premium brands such as Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Jaguar Land Rover, and Audi. This group is characterized by high production costs, complex design and advanced manufacturing processes, and strong labor unions. Within the category, German manufacturers face among the highest labor costs of $3,307 due to stringent regulations and high wage rates.

The second archetype, electric vehicle-only manufacturers, includes startups as well as more established players like Tesla, which do not operate under organized labor contracts. Their average labor costs range from $1,502 to $13,291, and they face high per vehicle production costs due to low manufacturing volumes. EV-only manufacturers also have been heavily reliant on government subsidies, which are now being cut back by the new administration.

The third archetype, mainstream model manufacturers, has an average labor cost of $880 per vehicle and includes traditional high-volume automakers from various countries. Japanese manufacturers enjoy lower labor costs per vehicle, with an average of $769, compared with manufacturers in the United States, where the average is $1,341 — a labor cost per vehicle that reflects recent historic union gains.

The fourth archetype, Chinese car manufacturers, has an average labor cost of $585 per vehicle, characterized by low wages and high efficiency. The group maintains the lowest overall conversion costs in the industry by leveraging its newer factories, efficient supply chains, and high production volumes” - https://www.oliverwyman.com/our-expertise/insights/2025/apr/...

mmooss 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

The idea that hourly labor cost is the overriding issue or cost is generally false, a story told by companies to get corporate welfare (including protectionism) and play the victim. They aren't sewing t-shirts; there is far more to the balance sheet than hourly cost; even focusing only on labor, there is productivity.

7952 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Surely the most important area of innovation is not the end product itself but how it is manufactured at scale. That is what made Henry and what will make Chinese manufacturers win.

lakid 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

An aussie player slowly building https://www.savicmotorcycles.com/

mperham 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'd argue the competition is already here: e-bikes. Regulation and safety concerns mean motorcycles will always be niche.

asdff 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It is amazing the premium on EV in both bikes and motorcycles. I mean a honda Navi motorcycle is only $2000 somehow.

hnav 3 days ago | parent [-]

With bicycles weight and refinement is a huge issue so to get something nice you do have to use more premium materials and production techniques. If you forego low weight and refinement, there are plenty of Alibaba specials both in kit and kickstarter brand form, but if you want a 40lb middrive with 300-400w of power, 0.3-0.4kwh and a natural feeling torque sensing control, you need to open you wallet to the tune of $4k.

Motorcycles are also interesting because they're at most 1.5-2x as efficient as cars, especially on the highway (poor aerodynamics). They're small so people assume they're gas-sippers, but at 80mph a sportsbike is not giving you much more than 45mpg. A typical bike carries 3-ish gallons for an effective range of 150 miles. To give an ev motorcycle a comparable range, you're looking at close to 20kwh of battery. In China a kwh of NMC battery is said to be $120-ish, so you're looking at $2k in just battery, excluding drive unit, inverter/charger, thermal management. Conversely a motorcycle engine and transmission is typically a single unit, all bathed in the same oil and amortized over huge production runs, for a simple 80hp drivetrain, I wouldn't be surprised if the marginal cost of production is $2k for the whole thing.

alistairSH 3 days ago | parent [-]

My Vespa Sprint 150 gets ~100mpg around town. It cost ~$5000, much of which is a brand premium. 150cc scooters from other brands (Genuine, etc) are much less.

hnav 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

right, EV city scooters are arguably already doable, modulo annoying charging, since in places where you'd feel compelled to ride a scooter you'd be less likely to have dedicating parking with charging for it. Motorcycles though require more range to be useful, it's pretty typical to fill up at least once on every ride.

euroderf 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

How realistic timewise is plugging e-bikes into plain old wall power ? Is it any improvement over trying to charge a e-car from wall power (i.e. all-night plus) ?

alistairSH 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Depends on the battery size (which depends on bike weight).

For a pedelec (actual e-bike meant to be pedaled), wall charging with a brick/wall-wart works fine. That's how they all work, at least any that I've seen. Some have removable batteries to make that easier, but the high-end models tend to have the battery wedged into the down tube and not removable (with complete disassembly of the bike).

For an e-scooter or light e-moto, wall charging should work fine, but it won't be fast. YOu're looking at 3+ hours to charge. Fine for most commuters and running errands, but not suitable for a delivery vehicle - they'd have to hot-swap batteries (or complete bikes).

Not sure about large electric motorcycles - there aren't that many out there right now. I'd guess similar to e-scooters, just with an even longer 10-80 or 0-100 charge period.

fragmede 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Ebikes from wall power works well. Also at ebike size, batteries are swappable, so you just get two and charge one while you're using the other one.

m463 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

there's not that much of a US motorcycle market in general.

As for electric, I would guess it's zero? (maybe harley?)

It's interesting that japanese motorcycles have always been on the cutting edge... but not on the cutting edge as far as electric.

addaon 2 days ago | parent [-]

> As for electric, I would guess it's zero?

Yes, exactly [0].

[0] https://zeromotorcycles.com/

alecco 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Nobody can compete against China today: almost zero regulation, massive subsidies, integrated supply chain (also subsidized), a lot of credit, and millions of cheap engineers (no unions!). And some companies can just pay suppliers with bonds/IOUs on future earnings (like BYD).