| ▲ | pipo234 3 days ago |
| I suppose you could do a clean room reimplantation, but I doubt you could advertise it as HDMI 2.1 compliant without legal repercussions. |
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| ▲ | stronglikedan 3 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| That's why you advertise it as HDMI 2.1 compatible instead. I believe there's precedence that allows that. |
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| ▲ | jorvi 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | It most likely would prevent you from playing anything HDCP. HDCP is illegal (?) to reverse engineer, and there are special versions of HDCP2 specifically for HDMI. You need a license and a verified device for HDCP. That might not matter much for an ordinary PC, but this Steam Machine will be competing for the living room with the PS5 and Xbox which have Netflix, Disney, HBO, etc; Not sure if things like Spotify are HDCP-protected. It will be interesting to see how Valve works out the kinks for that. Honestly in general it'll be interesting, because putting those things on Steam Store basically turns Steam Store into a general software store instead of a game store. And the only cross-platform store at that. With iOS and Android being broken open, you could have games be completely cross-licensed. I'd say other software too, but sadly with everything going the subscription model, you usually already have cross-licensing, in the form of an account. | | |
| ▲ | ruined 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | it's removing HDCP protection that's problematic, not adding HDCP protection looking at the available information on HDCP, it looks like the transmitter does not have to be authenticated - they use the receiver's pubkey, much like a web browser transmits to an HTTPS server | |
| ▲ | kalleboo 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | How does HDCP work over DisplayPort? I guess HDCP is a different spec from HDMI itself? | | |
| ▲ | Dagonfly 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Yes, HDCP is seperate from HDMI and DP. The source and the sink need a HDCP-licence. Both devices have embbed keys that get exchanged to estabish a encrypted channel. Without the licence you can't get the required key material. AFAIK, you can even sell HDMI devices without HDCP. Practically though, every entertainment device needs HDCP support. |
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| ▲ | estimator7292 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Part of what you're paying for is the right to use the trademarked tern HDMI, just like how the USB Consortium charges you stupid money to use the USB logo. The suit over usage of "HDMI" in a reverse engineered version would wind up arguing whether or not HDMI is a genericised term and the HDMI Forum would lose their trademark. They will throw every cent they have into preventing such a decision and it'll get ugly | | |
| ▲ | AnthonyMouse 3 days ago | parent [-] | | Can't you use a trademark to refer to the thing as long as it's clear you're not claiming to be them? Like if you say your PC is "IBM compatible" you're not claiming to be IBM, are you? |
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| ▲ | pipo234 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yes, that might work. Strictly, HDMI is a registered trademark that might have strings but you could always say something like EIA/CEA-861... compatible instead | | |
| ▲ | PunchyHamster 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | it's compliant with Valve Digital Media Interface. The fact signalling is same as for 2.1 HDMI is pure accident | |
| ▲ | adgjlsfhk1 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | trademark doesn't cover descriptive language. saying it is an HDMI port is trademarked. Saying it is compatible with HDMI cables and displays is a purely descriptive statement. |
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| ▲ | ssl-3 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | It's called nominative use, and describing a thing as "HDMI compatible" is permitted. One doesn't get to use the logo or even the typeface, but that's not a dealbreaker at all for the purposes being discussed here. Words themselves are OK (and initialisms, such as "HDMI," are just a subset of words like nouns and verbs are). The wiki has some background: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nominative_use |
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| ▲ | tadfisher 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| HDMI is patent-encumbered. The original specification has lost patent protection, but VRR and the other bits which form HDMI 2.1 and 2.2 are still protected as part of the Forum's patent pool. You could certainly try and upstream an infringing implementation into the kernel, but no one would be able to distribute it in their products without a license. |
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| ▲ | ronsor 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > no one would be able to distribute it in their products without a license. In some jurisdictions, yes; however, some would probably still distribute it anyway, on purpose or not. I doubt all of them would get sued either, since lawsuits are expensive and difficult. From my perspective, the objective is to make enforcement impractical. | |
| ▲ | AnthonyMouse 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > You could certainly try and upstream an infringing implementation into the kernel, but no one would be able to distribute it in their products without a license. Isn't that actually a pretty good workaround? Hardware vendor pays for the license, implements the standard, sells the hardware. Linux kernel has a compatible implementation, relying on the first sale doctrine to use the patent license that came with the hardware, and then you could run it on any hardware that has the port (and thereby the license). What's the problem? | | |
| ▲ | tadfisher 3 days ago | parent [-] | | > relying on the first sale doctrine to use the patent license that came with the hardware First-sale doctrine protects against copyright or trademark infringement. You might be thinking of "patent exhaustion"[1], which is a mostly US-specific court doctrine that prevents patent holders from enforcing license terms against eventual purchasers of the patented invention. There is no "transitive law of patent licensing", so-to-speak. In this case, it would still not protect Valve if they exercise each claim in the relevant patents by including both hardware and an unlicensed implementation of the software process. It would protect end users who purchased the licensed hardware and chose to independently install drivers which are not covered by the license. It's murky if Valve would infringe by some DeCSS-like scheme whereby they direct users to install a third-party HDMI 2.1 driver implementation on first boot, but I don't think they would risk their existing HDMI license by doing so. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhaustion_doctrine_under_U.S.... |
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| ▲ | pdimitar 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| What would the legal repercussions be against an anonymous coder who donated the code to multiple code forges? Action against the code forges themselves? I mean, not like they would be able to find the guy. |
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| ▲ | u8080 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I saw chinese hw companies use "HDTV" or "HD" to avoid HDMI trademark usage. |
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| ▲ | orthoxerox 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Yep, and "HDML" on one device that would obey its user and strip HDCP from the stream when asked. |
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| ▲ | ThatPlayer 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I've seen a few devices not advertising HDMI at all. Just calling it a generic "Digital Video" output. |
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| ▲ | littlestymaar 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| On what basis? Trademark infringement? |
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| ▲ | pipo234 3 days ago | parent [-] | | Yes, that. I think you're only allowed to claim support/compliance if you're certified. And that, allegedly, means they run a couple of closed source tests and involves paperwork and NDAs. |
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