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jerf 3 days ago

In the end, almost everything has a soap opera in it somewhere. People have a hard time processing stories that don't have a soap opera in them somewhere. For some people it's just impossible. There's really only a minority of people who are interested in stories that have no personal relationship stories in them at all.

That's not to say that the parts that aren't soap opera aren't meaningfully different. I disagree with the reductionistic claim that "everything is just a soap opera in the end", and leave it to the reader to determine whether or not the original link is making that mistake.

I would say it's more like salt in cooking for the vast majority of people; they expect a certain proper amount and trying to engage a normal human's taste without it is an uphill battle at best. As a result, across a wide variety of genres and styles, you'll find soap operas.

(I use soap opera as a bit of shorthand for things focusing on human relationships a lot. Soap operas tend to focus on the romantic end more than average, so the embedding is not quite perfect. But I use "soap opera" as the shorthand here because they are one of the more pure embodiments of the idea, because they are basically nothing but human relationships churning and spinning, with generally not much more going on. Yeah, a couple of them have a more exotic framing device, but all that does is move them slightly off the center of the genre, not really change them much.)

throw4847285 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Here's what's funny. You know what they used to call a book that foregrounded the soap opera elements you're talking about? A novel. That's why Tolstoy called Anna Karenina his first novel. Now, if you go to Wikipedia, War and Peace is also categorized as a novel. What else could you call it? But it's funny to imagine a time when novel was a genre.

baruz 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

I think you mean romance? A romance used to be a Roman-style long narrative fictional work that described extraordinary deeds, soap opera plots. Novels were more concerned with realistic narratives describing the nitty gritty of everyday life.

thrdbndndn 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

What else would one call War and Peace at its time?

stonemetal12 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

It is kind of like how modern art doesn't mean modern today. It means that time period where people called art "modern". Novel meant new as in "novel science results". It was used differentiate prose (the new style at the time) from epic poetry back in the 16 hundreds and stuck. How that translates to Russian IDK.

throwaway290 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

There is no "novel" (as like "new" thing) as genre in Russian lit. in russian things called "novel" in english are called a russian word that is a translation of "romance". and tbh "romance" makes tons more sense than "novel".

But "novella" (different genre) is a thing in russian.

WJW 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

"Modern" chess openings are from somewhere between 1860 and 1900.

Hypermodern openings emerged after world war 1.

One can only imagine what the old masters would call current chess theory.

throw4847285 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I don't speak Russian, but whatever the Russian word is for "book." Or maybe others called it a novel but Tolstoy rejected the label. I'm not sure.

Either way, the word "novel" wasn't necessarily equivalent to how it is used today: any book length work of narrative fiction.

Though watch out, this is a rabbit hole. Just look up novel on wikipedia. You'll see a big orange message at the top which is the first sign there is a problem. And then the article is excessively long. A lot of ink has been spilled trying to define what a "novel" is.

3 days ago | parent [-]
[deleted]
Frotag 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think a lot of character-centered conflicts boil down to the same set of problems, regardless of the setting. For instance, you often see "keep the status quo and die a slow death" vs "expensive, risky gamble". Sometimes the setting is a small midwest town, sometimes it's a spaceship on the way to Beta Virginis. Sometimes the solution is actually unique to the setting but often it's just "find a compromise, prevent the extremists from blowing up the deal". Replace the mayor with a captain and TNT with nuclear bombs and you basically have the same story.

> There's really only a minority of people who are interested in stories that have no personal relationship stories in them at all.

All that to say I wish there were more stories that are more focused on the plot / implications of the setting. What-ifs that aren't derailed by character drama. "What if telekinesis was real? How can we exploit it for energy / propulsion / everyday gadgets?" Like basically thought-experiments in narrative form, or a textbook with characters.

Or at least I wish I knew how to search for these types of stories. Searching for "hard sci-fi" comes close but it requires the science is plausible (no FTL, minimal new physics, etc). I don't think it's reasonable to expect authors to simulate an entire universe / provide plausibility proofs for every bit of engineering / physics. As long as the mechanics of whatever fantasy physics are consistent and developments are plausible, that's good enough for me. I don't even need a satisfying conclusion, if the protagonist rebels fail because the ultra-wealthy corpos are just better equipped, so be it, at least the ride was fun.

jacobjwalters 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

The Expanse (both a recently completed book series and a cancelled yet mostly complete TV adaptation) is pretty good at this; it sets up a world with complex political dynamics, and lets things mostly evolve as a result of those dynamics, with the main characters largely just along for the ride. It takes the science parts super seriously too: ships have to worry about acceleration and debris fields during battle, communications have to account for the speed of light, that sort of thing. There's only the occasional injection of new technologies to push things forward about once per book/season.

frmersdog 2 days ago | parent [-]

The Expanse has been called, "The closest thing that we're going to get to a live-action Gundam series," in the past. And it's certainly better in a lot of ways. You do have to thank Gundam (and Alien) for dragging us out of the John Carter Valley (which OG Star Trek certainly fell into quite often).

BalinKing 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Honestly, the SCP wiki might scratch this itch for you—it's sci-fi but with a lot of fantasy elements, and I'd put it on the "hard" side of the spectrum. Also, I think Greg Egan's books are pretty out there (the two I've read are Diaspora and Permutation City, whose settings aren't particularly "plausible" IMHO), and they really make you think.

pests 3 days ago | parent [-]

Agreed. It's framing device of reports / scattered documents / etc also remove a lot of the characterization or characters completely and focus just on the "what if?" of the story.

MichaelZuo 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

How many very smart people with excellent writing skills and grasp of human relations would spend their time writing fiction?

There’s probably not even 50,000 of those on Earth per annual cohort coming of age. And of the remainder practically no one will turn down the 7 figure cushy hedge fund job or equivalent career path.

sungho_ 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Orion's arm

bawolff 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I use soap opera as a bit of shorthand for things focusing on human relationships a lot.

I don't know if that's really fair. I don't think that's really what most people think the term soap opera denotes, and if you broaden it to mean any work that has any sort of relational elements, its almost a tautology that all fiction will meet the standard.

More to the point, i think its an unfair response to the article, as the author is not claiming that the similarity between these two works is merely that they have relationships in them.

ericmcer 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Thats always my justification for not caring about football at all. I don't know any of the characters and I missed the first 20 episodes.