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amelius 2 days ago

To add to that, crypto is also a gift from heaven for criminals who need to receive ransoms.

Dilettante_ 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

"Freedom enables crime" is an entirely true argument, and a gift from heaven for The Powers That Be who need to justify the taking-away of Freedom.

amelius 2 days ago | parent [-]

Freedom is never absolute. What gives one person freedom may limit another person's freedoms. Therefore you will have to weigh the pros and the cons of a technology that promises freedom.

ethbr1 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

I'd extend that a bit, in the same vein as TFA: you should always be aware of who you're taking freedom away from and who you're giving it to, in practical actual terms, when designing or deploying revolutionary technology.

If you deploy a non-government fiat monetary system... most of your users are going to be people who want to avoid government currency controls.

Consequently, without a counterbalance, they're going to skew the industry towards their needs.

In the same way that allowing the largest advertising company in the world to own the most popular browser in the world has some conflicts of interest.

Money sets strategic direction over the long term.

Wololooo 2 days ago | parent [-]

Which funnily is the dumbest thing ever. Because in order to use the currency you need to exchange it which means that you need input and outputs, you slightly obfuscate that but in the crypto chain everything is saved, so everything is traceable forever. Slip up once when extracting or get your wallet involved in unsavoury interactions and you're done. It's not a matter of if but a matter of when...

Dilettante_ 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

There is a difference between "Freedom to do something" and "Freedom to not have something happen to you".

If we keep curtailing the former to serve the latter, we will end up perfectly safe from interruptions, doing nothing at all(aside from what the government dictates as 'serving the common good')

geysersam 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

There's no difference. You can't formulate that distinction coherently.

What's the difference between having the freedom to walk the street and having the freedom to not be hindered from walking the street?

igogq425 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

You have articulated the same freedom twice here.

I live in a city where I can be fairly certain that I will not be the victim of a robbery. I don't need to carry a weapon or otherwise appear defensible. This type of crime simply does not exist here (or only to a very limited extent). That is “freedom from.” If I had the right to carry a firearm to defend myself in the event of a robbery, that would be “freedom to.” These two forms of freedom can be distinguished in a very clear-cut way. One allows you to do certain things. The other ensures that negative events do not occur. In North America, the cultural focus seems to be primarily on “freedom to.” But I would consider it a massive restriction of my freedom if I could not walk through my neighborhood at night without worry, even if I had the right to carry a firearm for protection.

Your semantic sleight of hand cannot reflect the difference between someone who feels safe because they believe they can and are allowed to defend themselves against danger (freedom to defend oneself) and someone who feels safe because they believe there is no danger (freedom from danger). However, there is a clearly discernible qualitative difference between these two freedoms. Otherwise, there would be no difference in terms of freedom between walking through Caracas, Tijuana, Port-au-Prince, or Pietermaritzburg with a firearm in your pocket and walking completely unarmed through Abu Dhabi, The Hague, or Trondheim.

somenameforme 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There's tremendous difference. Imagine I put a 5' high fence every 3 feet on a sidewalk. You still have the freedom to walk down the street, but no longer have the ability to do so. This is why the Bill of Rights is framed in terms of limitations on governments as opposed to guarantees of rights.

For instance, the Bill of Rights doesn't grant you the right to free speech. You already naturally have that. It instead makes it unconstitutional for the government to try to hinder that right. By contrast the USSR and China both had/have guarantees of freedom of speech in their constitution, but they mean nothing because obviously you have freedom of speech by virtue of being able to speak.

You having the freedom of speech says nothing about the ability of the government (or private companies in contemporary times) engaging in actions making it difficult to exercise that speech without fear of repercussion. Or as the old tyrannical quote goes, "There is freedom of speech, but I cannot guarantee freedom after speech."

freejazz 2 days ago | parent [-]

> There's tremendous difference.

No there isn't. They are the different sides of the same coin. Any freedom from something is a constraint against someone else doing that thing.

somenameforme 2 days ago | parent [-]

This may be how you personally interpret these things, but it is not how it has been interpreted universally for many centuries now. The freedom to do something has nothing to do with how easy it is to do, or even the absolute viability. For a basic example of the latter, every US citizen by birth has the freedom to become President some day, yet of course it is literally impossible for more than 0.000006% of people to achieve that within their expected lifetimes.

This is why constitutional guarantees of rights, the world round, are generally completely meaningless.

freejazz a day ago | parent [-]

>The freedom to do something has nothing to do with how easy it is to do, or even the absolute viability.

Are you confusing me with someone else?

> For a basic example of the latter, every US citizen by birth has the freedom to become President some day, yet of course it is literally impossible for more than 0.000006% of people to achieve that within their expected lifetimes

I have no idea what this has to do with my point and you have not adequately explained the relevancy either.

Propelloni 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yes, you can, if you consider that liberty and freedom are functions of society and not nature. In this sense, dying from old age is not being unfree.

To stay with your example, one is bascically the absence of limitations (negative freedom), ie. the freedom to walk the street. The other is the presence of possibilities (positive freedom), ie. there needs to be a street to walk it.

throw0101d 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>> There is a difference between "Freedom to do something" and "Freedom to not have something happen to you". […]

> There's no difference. You can't formulate that distinction coherently.

The historian Timothy Snyder just wrote a book on the difference between Freedom from and Freedom to:

> Freedom is the great American commitment, but as Snyder argues, we have lost sight of what it means—and this is leading us into crisis. Too many of us look at freedom as the absence of state power: We think we’re free if we can do and say as we please, and protect ourselves from government overreach. But true freedom isn’t so much freedom from as freedom to—the freedom to thrive, to take risks for futures we choose by working together. Freedom is the value that makes all other values possible.

* https://timothysnyder.org/on-freedom

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Snyder

(The book was published in 2024, and there are a number of talks he gave on the subject online made during his book tour.)

Dilettante_ 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Freedom to walk the street means no police will stop me when I try to walk the street. Freedom to not be hindered from walking the street means police will stop other people from stopping me.

PunchyHamster 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

street is public. Nothing is "done to you"

Freedom to walk anywhere means someone can walk onto your property ("done to you") You can curtail that freedom, because you are essentially giving up ("inability to do something with stuff someone else owns") some freedom to get some other freedom ("ability to own stuff that will not be used by strangers").

It's a tradeoff. A good one. Tradeoff of say "nobody's anything is private now because that allows govt a slightly easier time to catch criminals" is not a good tradeoff.

amelius 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

My freedom to put cameras in your home is your non-freedom to have privacy.

Sounds like not such a great idea now?

Dilettante_ 2 days ago | parent [-]

You would have the freedom to try to put cameras in my home, I would have the freedom to try and stop you or take them down again. Shock horror, personal agency instead of surrogate power via government!

SigmundA 2 days ago | parent [-]

Unless amelius is stronger than you, or has better weapons, or commands a gang that is bigger than your gang, then you can't stop them.

Its almost like you need some sort of power structure with the monopoly on violence to enforce agreed upon freedoms, they could be called the "government" which enforces "laws".

Dilettante_ 2 days ago | parent [-]

>stronger than you, or has better weapons, or commands a gang that is bigger than your gang, then you can't stop them

How do you not realize you're literally describing government?

SigmundA 2 days ago | parent [-]

How can you not realize that’s the point? Monopoly on violence is just that, the definition of the state.

Anarchy is not a stable system, you have no property rights or freedoms without a way to enforce them.

You provide no alternative, a government will form from a power vacuum made up of whoever has the most physical power around you.

Dilettante_ a day ago | parent | next [-]

>government will form from a power vacuum made up of whoever has the most physical power around you.

Yup! My issue with the current system is that The Powers That Be pretend to act in the interest of their subjects(or, actually my issue is that people believe it) instead of being a gang of thugs imposing their will.

amelius 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

It can also be companies who put cameras in your home and abuse them.

imglorp 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Anonymous crypto, yes.

But if you're suggesting blockchain is anonymous and payments are untraceable, that's not the case for bitcoin at least. It's a gift to law enforcement, if they cared enough to trace btc transactions.

Yizahi 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

In practice all tokens including BTC are massively used for law evasion. Criminal don't need any fancy Monero for that, they only need to break the chain once, or maybe a few times an that is enough. That usually happens at the entry points, a criminal backe exchanges of any size will happily take your cash or digital money and exchange then for any tokens you like and vice versa. A politician then declares that his several BTC worth a few millions were "fairly mined" and nothing to see there. Or a corrupt government pays with tokens for some sanctioned wares. The whole Axis of Losers trade is propped up by mafia's USDT, which are used to trade between Axis countries and willing collaborators like India, to buy oil/rockets/chips/soldiers/anything, with central exchange in Dubai and other petrocratias.

gsky 2 days ago | parent [-]

India banned crypto. It never even traded using crypto. By the way a country of billion plus should have freedom to do trade in whatever way they like

amarant 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

I tried to pay my parking ticket in heroin, and they threw me in jail!

Viva la revolución!

Yizahi 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

And other countries have freedom to scoff at that or even sanction trade with it (gasp, the horror!). Freedom works both ways, you know.

A fitting quote for the moment:

"Pacifism is objectively pro-fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side, you automatically help out that of the other." (c) George Orwell

Also regarding India and tokens, sure they are officially banned. But they are still a key link a in trade chain, that' why I mentioned Dubai and its neighbors. They act as a laundromat and a tumbler, obscuring financial flows. And one part of the Russia-India trade or Russia-Iran trade or even Russia-China trade involves tethers (USDT), without which exchanging rubles to rupee or to yuan directly would be highly problematic and risky. Tokens mitigate some of the risk by hiding financial flows through multiple jurisdictions.

2 days ago | parent [-]
[deleted]
amelius 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

This looks like a case of in theory yes, in practice no.

Tracing btc transactions to real persons can be quite some work and is a new kind of cat and mouse game.

127 2 days ago | parent [-]

Easier than with either cash or gold.

amelius 2 days ago | parent [-]

Unless you know where and when the ransom exchange takes place.

For criminals this is far less convenient than obfuscating the transaction trail.

mettamage 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The problem is that circumventing the government gets into criminal territory pretty quick, even if enough people view the activity as legitimate.

I remember Thailand letting everyone free with weed related crimes.

Or sometimes being a whistleblower is seen as criminal. Or if it isn’t seen as such but the government wants to view it that way, they will make it happen.

monerozcash 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's nice and all, but the same people who are running the biggest ransomware operations now had no trouble receiving the billions of dollars they were stealing directly from US bank accounts before they pivoted to ransomware.

Ransomware would still work just fine using regular bank transfers. Especially given that the payor has no incentive to stop that money from arriving at it's destination.

But sure, using crypto the criminals get to keep the 20-30% they'd pay for payment processing otherwise. I'm not sure that really makes a difference though.

sigmarule 2 days ago | parent [-]

Pre-crypto ransomware operations receiving billions through bank transfers is fantasy, or less euphemistically, a lie. Trying to hand wave away the absolutely-real logistical difficulties groups would be plagued by if they shifted to using global financial institutions instead of crypto is additionally dishonest.

monerozcash 2 days ago | parent [-]

It's neither fantasy, nor a lie. You shouldn't throw around accusations like that without actually familiarizing yourself with the topic.

Banking trojans were doing just that, and receiving that money is obviously far more challenging than ransom payments because the owner will tend to notice pretty quickly and want it back. Ransomware doesn't have this problem, they can just deliver the keys only after they actually have the money in their control.

BEC groups are stealing billions every year via bank transfers right now.

.ru crime forums are absolutely full of people who will handle the logistics for you. They'll provide you bank accounts to send the money to, and deliver you whatever is left after their cut. A regular customer with high volumes will get excellent rates. The logistics aren't a challenge because there is absolutely massive pre-existing infrastructure already available.

Ransomware isn't big because of crypto(currency), Winlockers were popularized well before crypto payments became common. Ransomware just happened to develop at the same time as crypto, not thanks to it.

WinstonSmith84 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

only for privacy coins tho

bleuuuu 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Not true by any means. Fiat is the tried and true way to commit crime. Having transcations on a ledger forever, works against your criminal take. You are just repeating.

ecb_penguin 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

> Having transcations on a ledger forever

Do you think cash transactions don't have even more detailed ledgers? The "tried and true fiat" has been used to catch criminals for centuries because banks keep very detailed records of withdraws and deposits.

> You are just repeating

You are just repeating. Obviously both are being used for crime

lxgr 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Taking possession of the ransom without getting arrested/physically followed by the police is what foils most kidnapping plots [1], and cryptocurrencies definitely address that part.

Criminals don't really need strong anonymity as long as the payment system has strong censorship resistance and at least one counterparty won't mind accepting "tainted" funds.

Arguably, privacy is much more important to non-criminal individual users as they themselves can be targeted by criminals as a result of their income/holdings being globally visible, and unlike organized crime, they often have less means to protect themselves from $5 wrench attacks.

[1] Source: I watched many crime thrillers growing up

throw0101d 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Not true by any means. Fiat is the tried and true way to commit crime.

Depends on the crimes, and up to certain values/volumes.

For 'consensual' transactional things for goods/services it could be useful (e.g., drug deals). But for ransom-like stuff, where one end of the 'transaction' is not thrilled with the 'deal', having to physically pick up the cash puts the perp at risk.

KptMarchewa 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If that was the goal, we'd be doing CBDCs instead of crypto scams.

FabHK 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Sure, but fiat is indispensable to running a modern economy. And the abuses that occur, of course, are curbed by vigorous regulation and enforcement. Sure, HSBC laundered money for the Mexican cartels. When it came out, it was a big scandal, they were fined, and the money laundering was stopped.

Crypto is entirely dispensable. It is pseudonymous, by design resists regulation, and has no enforcement. Some chains are deliberately opaque (Monero, Zcash), and there are tumblers to obscure flows even further. Its approach to money laundering is "sure, bring it on".

Fiat is indispensable, and better for legitimate purposes than crime. Crypto is dispensable, and better for crime than legitimate purposes. We should dispense with it.

venturecruelty 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

"Fiat currency can be used to commit crime, too, so my solving-sudokus-for-heroin computer money is totally fine."