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paganel 3 days ago

If you continue with the idea of transfers, which is, in effect, the current government buying off parts of its constituents, then "democracy", whatever has remained of it in the West, will die for good. What happens if I receive money from the Government but in the same time I'm also actively opposed to said Government's actions? Will I be allowed to speak against the Government that is, as a matter of fact, paying me? Will I have second thoughts of doing it? Will the Government cut off aid to me if I'm too vocal against said Government's actions?

All this to say that all we're doing is turning most of our countries' citizens into de facto slaves, people with no political free-will and who are well-aware that if they were to speak out against the powers that be they risk destitution.

OkayPhysicist 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

> What happens if I receive money from the Government but in the same time I'm also actively opposed to said Government's actions?

Nothing? That's how it's worked in literally all functioning democracies. The purpose of any government, democratic or not, is to benefit its constituents. If it doesn't do that, we have a moral obligation to destroy the tyrants. Those benefits range in their tangible value, from hard to quantify things, like establishing public expectations of behavior (laws), to easy to quantify (subsidies like wellfare, farming subsidies, etc).

I'm truly baffled by your take that seems to insist that helping the needy somehow makes you moreso a slave to the government than the whole monopoly on legitimate use of force thing.

eru 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

You are mixing up lots of different ideas.

You can have net transfers to the poor without turning most of your country's into net recipients.

I also don't understand why you assume that people who are net recipients would stop complaining or voicing their opinion? That's not at all what happens in practice.

paganel 3 days ago | parent [-]

You're turning the "poors" into slaves, into slaves to the Government that is keeping them (the "poors") on the Government's payroll. I'm not "mixing" anything, so if we can please leave that condescending tone behind that would be best.

> who are net recipients would stop complaining or voicing their opinion

Why? You're asking why the "poors" will have second thoughts about openly criticising the hand that, literally, feeds them?

eru 3 days ago | parent [-]

> Why? You're asking why the "poors" will have second thoughts about openly criticising the hand that, literally, feeds them?

No, I'm not asking why the poor would stop complaining. I am pointing out that empirically we observe that people who receive government largess don't shut up! (And that's true for all kinds of government largess, eg also for subsidies for rich people or companies.)

No, the "why" question I am asking is: why do you think that recipients of government handouts would shut up, when in the real world they haven't done so?

> You're turning the "poors" into slaves, into slaves to the Government that is keeping them (the "poors") on the Government's payroll.

Would you say the same about eg car drivers, if the government provides roads free of charge to the user? Or about anyone who benefits from national defense? Or are in-kind benefits excluded from your calculus? In that case, would giving poor people food and clothing and shelter instead of money mean they are no longer 'slaves' by your definition?

(For comparison: real-world, actual slaves like in the American South were usually provided with in-kind benefits to keep them alive. Money rarely changed hands, partially because it leads to autonomy.)