It's not possible to do what you're describing (kanban/XP) for any commercial application or open source project that is intended to be taken remotely seriously without some amount of estimating involved.

I saw elsewhere that you're defining estimating as a very detailed and involved process, which the author of the article did not, the person I originally claimed estimates are impossible did not, and I did not.

I agree that's not necessary in most cases, if not all, to do the level of estimating you described.

And you'll note that I didn't include "people who are doing me a favor" in the list of individuals I'd insist on an estimate from.

You don't sound like you're one of these people, but I personally feel that software developers who act like they're performing special incantations over their keyboard and can't be expected to answer to anyone about their deliverables do us all a disservice, though maybe I should just be happy that they allow me to provide an alternative that is much easier to work with and results in additional business for me.

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wpietri 2 days ago | parent [-]

I am always fascinated when people tell me it is impossible to do something I have done. That plenty of people have done. For decades. But I shouldn't be surprised. Kuhn was not kidding around.

And yes, I strongly believe in accountability to business stakeholders, customers, and colleagues. I just think the better way is not paper fantasies, but demonstrated realities. Focusing on working software, customer collaboration, and responding to change, one might say. But people have said it before and it didn't make much difference.

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bpt3 2 days ago | parent [-]

You aren't doing what you're doing without performing what is commonly known as estimating, you just avoid using what seem like triggering words to you and the one other person who is almost spamming responses to my comments with the same information.

See "standard" vs. "schedule", and your very specific and formal definition of an estimate that is almost certainly not what anyone else has been using during this discussion and is not used in practice in most software development shops.

Kudos to you for delivering working features on a consistent enough basis that you've earned enough goodwill that people basically leave you to your internal processes and trust that you'll come through for them. I believe that's necessary to have a healthy working environment where you don't end up with what you, I, and every other software developer on earth is trying to avoid, which is an acrimonious relationship with the people with the money where they dictate what, where, when, and how we do our job.

But to claim that there is literally no estimating or scheduling taking place as you perform software development is just not true. You can post your disagreement on every single comment I've made on this topic if you want, your existing comments already speak for themselves on the matter.

	▲	laserlight a day ago \| parent [-]
		As an outsider, I understand what wpietri argues, but I fail to understand yours --- even though I've read other branches of the discussion. Do you argue that wpietri's method still estimates tasks but the estimation is always around two weeks?