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rgmerk 5 days ago

OK, I did some calculations based on:

* a 5,000 km electric range. * 40MW continuous power requirement for a 21.5 knot cruise speed[1] for a 14000 teu container vessel: * the size and weight capacity for the batteries being the same as the fuel capacity for a 14000 teu container vessel (taking the upper figure from [2]) * the battery pack having similar gravimetric (weight) and volumetric(size) energy density as this a modern Chinese NMC EV pack[3]

The short version is that the battery vessel would require about 25,000 tonnes of batteries for a 5,000km range under those assumptions, which compares to the current fuel capacity of approximately 13,000 tonnes. Volumetrically, it's even closer - about 17,000 cubic metres, compared to about 13,000 for the bunker fuel.

Furthermore, it's worth considering just how much cargo the ship carries. One teu corresponds to about 33 cubic metres of cargo space (not counting the space taken up by the walls of the container), so the ship can carry about 462,000 cubic metres of cargo. So the additional space required to carry an additional 3,500-odd cubic metres of batteries corresponds to only about 0.8% of the ship's total cargo-carrying capacity.

I was surprised at just how doable this is, to be honest. What threw me is just how much bunker fuel ships can carry; if I'm doing the sums right, a ship like this can carry enough fuel to circumnavigate the globe a couple of times over. It may well make economic sense but it's not really necessary to have that kind of range to operate the ship safely.

[1]https://www.man-es.com/docs/default-source/marine/tools/prop... [2]https://www.freightwaves.com/news/how-many-gallons-of-fuel-d... [3]https://www.batterydesign.net/zeekr-140kwh-catl-qilin/

fooker 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Okay based on your calculation, here's a neat way to do this.

The battery capacity you have calculated needs about 500 shipping containers.

A large shipping vessel carries 24000 container. So make the batteries containerized, and easy to load/unload.

You could imagine pretty fast charging like this, and at some point in the near future using the same infrastructure with containerized nuclear reactors.

rswail 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Why would you bother with the complexity of containerized nuclear reactors when you have containerized batteries that can easily be loaded/unloaded by standard port facilities?

ragebol 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

You can carry more cargo if you don't need all those batteries. If that difference makes economic sense is not yet known of course, as there are no containerized nuclear reactions that I know of.

mikkupikku 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

> as there are no containerized nuclear reactions that I know of.

Even if you built one, as some people have proposed designs, it doesn't get you nuclear reactors you can just stack up on a ship or something. Containerized reactors could be convenient for getting a reactor to a remote site where it's needed but once there you'll have to provide substantial shielding for it; usually the way this is meant to be done in these proposals is digging a big hole and/or putting up earthen berms around it. And those earthen berms will be subjected to a lot of neutron radiation, so you need a plan to deal with the site after you run this reactor for any substantial amount of time; the whole site will be radioactive.

There's really no getting around this, and most of the people pitching container-sized nuclear reactors are hoping investors don't realize it. The amount of shielding that you could ever hope to place in an ISO container isn't anywhere near enough.

fooker 3 days ago | parent [-]

You can use the reactor in the open ocean where shielding is not a big deal, and switch to conventional fuels when needed.

Nuclear submarines and aircraft carriers already exist in pretty good numbers.

rgmerk 2 days ago | parent [-]

Reactor fuel remains radioactive even when the reactor isn't operating.

And the proposal was a containerised nuclear reactor, so you're going to irradiate the surrounding containers in the process.

Nuclear submarines and aircraft carriers are completely different beasts. The reactor core is very heavily shielded, is built into the ship/boat, and is tended by a team of expert operators, and (at least in the case of US/UK subs) uses bomb-grade uranium as fuel.

fooker 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> as there are no containerized nuclear reactions that I know of.

https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/nuclear-power-...

ragebol 3 days ago | parent [-]

Many in design, a few under construction, 2 in operation, by China & Russia. My point being still: the economics aren't clear yet.

overfeed 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

To get paid more money for the additional +480[1] container capacity you gain over the ships life.

1. I'm ball-parking an onboard nuclear source would take up the equivalent displacement as 20-50 containers.

PunchyHamster 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

having to change batteries every 2 years instead of every trip would be one. Saving few tons would be another

pandemic_region 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What about the scenario where you just want to refuel? Shuffling containers around just to get the batteries out seems suboptimal.

fooker 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Placing/moving containers for some specific loading/unloading goal has been a solved problem for a while.

You can imagine this needs solving pretty hardcore optimization problems.

CraigJPerry 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Refuelling a cargo ship can take over a day. Quite a boring but well paid job.

How many kwh are you lifting at a time with a container? How many kwh are you pumping in the same period?

jadeopteryx 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

Ekaros 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Thinking of charging is also interesting. What is the power requirement for that? If they use 40MW under operation, it means they must charge faster unless they spend at least as long time charging. So that capacity requirement can get quite high.

Workaccount2 3 days ago | parent [-]

Massive battery banks at the ports. Charging batteries off of batteries can yield incredibly fast charge times.

j16sdiz 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

> Massive battery banks at the ports.

These kind of infrastructure is not something you can build in 3 year. You need more than one port having that.

jabl 3 days ago | parent [-]

Sure. Just like coaling stations and bunker fuel facilities didn't pop into existence with the snap of a finger either. Yet somehow they were built, eventually.

PunchyHamster 3 days ago | parent [-]

well, they started from smaller ships and grew in decades to the size they are now. Pretty sure we want faster timeline

nradov 3 days ago | parent [-]

Who is "we"? If this happens at all then it's going to take decades. There are severe constraints on the supply chain and skilled labor force.

5d41402abc4b 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

>Charging batteries off of batteries can yield incredibly fast charge times

How?

Workaccount2 3 days ago | parent [-]

Batteries have low internal impedance.

A grid can do it too, but spiky 400MW loads are difficult and annoying for a utility. And the port, who would probably have to call in to schedule charging.

It's much easier to "trickle" charge a grid scale battery bank, which can then be used however the port wants whenever they want without upsetting the grid.

AnthonyMouse 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

> spiky 400MW loads

Ports can have 10+ container ships at once and unloading one can take multiple days. You're not surprising the power company with sudden loads, you're building a big power plant at the docks and then selling power to the grid during the part of the day when the price is high and charging the ships when it's low.

MengerSponge 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Batteries are also already DC and easy to make arbitrarily high voltage.

I wonder what the "trickle" power requirement is? Knowing next to nothing about shipyard logistics... 20MW?

Ekaros 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

In the end, all those battery powered ships needs to be charged. So it is their total energy consumption split between harbours over some period. And as we are talking about trickling you could pretty much average it.

It likely will depend on patterns of harbour. Like how many ships visit, what sort of distance those go. And how much of total time is spend charging some ship.

Worst case is maximum distance trips and maximum utilization that is there being ship almost always being docked. Apart from times when docked ship change.

stavros 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Batteries are, as an approximation, charged at 1C, so for a 40 mWh battery you need 40 MW.

beAbU 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I am really surprised that the mass and volume requirement for batteries are within the same order of magnitude as for bunker fuel for this task. I thought batteries were still lagging far behind!

Is bunker fuel energy density just that bad or is it something else? A 50kg tank of diesel can easily outperform a 200kg pack of batteries in an ev.

rgmerk 4 days ago | parent [-]

Battery energy density is way behind that of bunker fuel, it’s just that cargo ships (at least as far as some googling suggests), have fuel capacity far in excess of what is required for a 5000km range.

conk 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

My guess is not every port can supply bunker fuel. It prob makes sense to load up when the ship is near a refinery and then make several trips before refueling.

closewith 3 days ago | parent [-]

> My guess is not every port can supply bunker fuel.

You can bunker anywhere, even at sea if you're willing to pay. Ships have large tanks to allow for economically advantageous bunkering at cheap and low-tax ports.

beAbU 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Ah, so what you are saying is we are not going to need to make significant compromises to the ship's cargo capacity, but we are impacting the total max range significantly? Is a fully fuelled ship capable of much more than 5k km?

acchow 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

But 5000km is shorter than many major routes, right?

Shanghai to Los Angeles is more than double that

Qwertious 3 days ago | parent [-]

The route length isn't important, only the longest distance between ports that you can recharge at. Cargo ships regularly slow steam (I.e. run the engine slow to improve fuel-efficiency) and stopping to recharge batteries at multiple ports to reduce the batteries needed is the exact same concept - sacrificing speed to improve fuel costs.

Shanghai to LA is probably the worst example (since the pacific ocean is basically the emptiest spot on the planet, as land/port frequency goes), but Hawaii still exists and they could recharge there.

stavros 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

How does Hawaii produce its power? I can't imagine they have tons of capacity.

EDIT: Seems like they mostly use imported oil, so saying "bring us a bunch of oil and we'll charge your batteries with it" seems like the ship is just burning oil with extra steps.

guttural 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

I bet these batteries would be standard container sized and they could be shipped as normal containers would be wherever cheap power is available from nuclear or solar or maybe water. Australia could be huge here, back in 2024 there were news of a six gigawatt solar farm in remote Northern Australia. Based on my very vague knowledge of the geography I presume there's plenty more desert to build solar there. Charge the battery-containers, ship them to China.

stavros 3 days ago | parent [-]

Whatever they are, you can't say "how does the ship refuel when it's empty? I know, it'll carry its own extra fuel".

guttural 3 days ago | parent [-]

No, no you misunderstand, the ports will provide fuel in the form of charged battery containers and there will be runs solely to carry these charged batteries from wherever they can be charged cheap to ports where charging is expensive/unavailable.

Los Angeles port already tries to achieve zero-emissions operations by 2030 I presume more solar could be added. And I guess some/many ports and Los Angeles specifically could use wave energy. But, again, I could very well imagine Northern Australia supply ports in Eastern Asia.

rgmerk 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I don’t understand why Hawaii doesn’t have more solar. Gotta be a lot cheaper than imported oil, even with the the US solar premium.

rgmerk 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

In any case, the near-term use case isn’t across the Pacific, it’s to other Asian ports, of which there are numerous very large ones in reasonably close proximity. Think Singapore, Japan, Korea, and so on, all of which are well within 5000km of Chinese ports.

colechristensen 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The recharging infrastructure for such a vessel would be an interesting challenge. Likewise if those batteries caught fire.

manquer 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

No need do charge in-situ, the ships (and ports) already transfer several times the battery volume and weight on berthing quickly . The battery systems could be designed to leverage that .

Fire hazards are there for any fuel, Safety systems evolve to handle them. The environmental impact would be more localized than an oil spill.

mbirth 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Just make the battery banks container sized and swap them out with fresh ones while doing the main cargo. Then service and charge the old ones.

pbmonster 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

That also means you can trivially optimize your fuel/cargo ratios. Going across the pacific? Just load 200 more battery containers. Singapore to China right after? Room for 400 FEUs more than normal.

amluto 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

It’s not quite “just”. A way to safely and efficiently connect and disconnect them would be needed.

rgmerk 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

A quick googling suggests that unloading such a vessel takes at least a couple of days, more likely 3-4.

Assuming two days available to charge the vessel, you'd need about 100MW continuous. Not trivial, but doable.

As far as battery fires go, sure, but a) there are already a lot of electric ferries in service so designing safe maritime battery packs isn't a new challenge and b) the alternative isn't exactly risk free either; we've seen plenty of oil spills from ships.

lostlogin 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

The fire thing comes up with cars all the time. Petrol cars are vastly more likely to catch fire, but are a bit easier to extinguish.

I can only imaging how hard it is to put out a ship fire, but is there any reason to see that the situation would be different? Bunker fuel appears to be less flammable.

wakawaka28 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

>Petrol cars are vastly more likely to catch fire, but are a bit easier to extinguish.

Petrol cars at most marginally more likely to catch fire, if at all. They cannot catch fire by simply being submerged in a foot of water, like an EV can. They are far easier to extinguish than EVs, which are practically unextinguishable and can reignite weeks or months later. You can use a fire extinguisher on a petrol car fire if you catch it early (they are usually electrical fires). If you catch an EV fire early, your best course of action is to run away as fast as possible.

Ships are not known to be subject to fires because the types of fuel they use are not generally so volatile, and they are literally surrounded by water which can be pumped to the deck or wherever to drown any fire. Some use diesel, which is difficult to light even with a match. Others use heavy crude oil that looks like tar and would be similarly difficult to ignite accidentally. A battery fire on a ship would be a HUGE problem, as we have seen with ships carrying EVs.

I think another often-overlooked risk of EVs is the arson risk. Even if batteries are less likely to catch fire (in the first few years of use, if you baby them), a bad actor can start an unextinguishable fire by shorting out or otherwise igniting a battery pack. This is easy to do and devastating.

lostlogin 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

> Petrol cars at most marginally more likely to catch fire, if at all.

“An American insurer found that just 25 out of 100,000 EVs suffer fire damage.

By comparison, 1530 per 100,000 ICE cars experience fire, and hybrid vehicles suffer a much higher risk of 3475 per 100,000 .”

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/electric-cars/how-much-fi...

wakawaka28 3 days ago | parent [-]

I don't believe those numbers, and even if I did it is a fact that EV fires are far more dangerous than petrol fires. As for hybrid vehicles, you get the best and worst of both worlds including two separate high-energy systems that can catch fire. The average age of an EV is way lower than the average age of a petrol car, and they also tend to be toys for the wealthy who do not abuse them as much as the owners of petrol vehicles abuse theirs. EVs are often ruined by minor accidents or water ingress, and can pose a major fire/explosion risk at any shop that would dare to undertake a repair. Just the other day I heard one EV owner was quoted $12k to repair an issue caused by spilling a bottle of drinking water inside the EV.

As I said, the fact that these fires can't be extinguished is a major arson risk, as is their toxicity. Insurers will eventually have to raise their rates to cover the extreme risk posed by EVs. https://www.himarley.com/news/ev-charging-fires-are-rare-but... Storing damaged EVs safely means you need to spread them out like a hundred feet apart or something, so that one of them igniting doesn't start a whole lot of EVs on fire with toxic and inextinguishable flames. There are no solutions to these problems after having EVs on the market for several years, because it's a very hard problem to solve.

LtdJorge 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

And you get downvoted, lol…

wakawaka28 3 days ago | parent [-]

Yes lol. I should have a thousand points by now probably, but every time I get on a streak of telling people uncomfortable truths they knock me down like 50 points.

cellular 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Just hang the batteries over the water in containers. Dip them into water if they catch fire.

darth_avocado 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Electric battery fire is not exactly extinguished with water.

Maakuth 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

This is largely a misconception that's caused by the fact that EV fires are hard to extinguish with normal water sprays. That is because the bettery packs are designed to be water proof, so it is hard to get the fire patrol's water in. If you can immerse the pack in water, the fire is extinguished without much trouble. That's unlike petroleum fires, where the fuel is lighter than water and liquid, so water spray will boil and spread the fire instead of extinguishing it.

Qwertious 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

It doesn't need to be extinguished, it just needs to be removed from the ship. Even a second of airtime (and a healthy lateral velocity) might be enough that the ship is out of the explosive radius of the battery.

PunchyHamster 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

sure, and what you do with remaining 499 burning containers when your crane is dipping the first one ?

halJordan 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

How many ships in port charging at a time? Honestly sounds like a good place to stay a few of those micro reactors lockmart claims to have

rgmerk 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

The Port of Los Angeles is one of the largest ports in the USA, and has about 1,800 ship arrivals annually.

If they were all electric, all of this size, and required a full charge on arrival, you’re talking about (very roughly) 1 GW continuous power requirement for charging the ships. That’s a lot; no bones about it, but it’s not unprecedented - aluminium smelters and data centers are similarly hungry for power.

anticodon 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Wouldn't it be much easier than to put micro reactors on a ship directly? Like on Russian icebreakers that can function on one load of fuel for 3 or 5 years, don't remember exactly but at least 3 years for sure.

rswail 3 days ago | parent [-]

Containers in general as well as palletization dramatically improved the economics and port efficiency around the world.

Using containerized energy that can be offloaded and charged and swapped at ports is much more efficient way to spread the cost and infrastructure and safety around the world.

There are many ports where you really don't want any form of radiation/nuclear materials available.

baq 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

If you have one ship to charge, maybe. Ten is in the standard nuclear power plant territory which is politically impossible to build outside of China.

rgmerk 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

You’re not going to build a nuclear reactor (other than military ones) anywhere near a major port.

You power this the same way you power aluminum smelters - you have a big honking grid connection and build the generation capacity in places with more room.

speedgoose 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

France plans to build 6 more reactors in existing power plants.

toomuchtodo 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Sodium batteries have substantially reduced thermal runaway risk compared to lithium. Worst case, the ship sinks during a fire and the batteries are flooded. Charging infra is likely similar to existing EV ferry charging infra. Ship pulls into the berth and starts soaking the battery storage up to 1C up until departure. Could probably use a heat exchange and raw water available for battery cooling to maximize charge current curve, actively cooling the battery storage during charging.

https://www.phmsa.dot.gov/sites/phmsa.dot.gov/files/2023-04/...

https://old.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/1m8wlou/e...

aeonfox 5 days ago | parent [-]

Na-ion cells have roughly half the volumetric and gravimetric energy density of NMC, so it's double the weight and double the space. Apart from still being at least as—if not more—expensive as LFP, they also have a sloping voltage curve, vs lithium with is relatively flat, which poses problems for voltage conversion, and these engines are going to be taking kilovolts of power. So I think those problems would need to be solved first.

amluto 3 days ago | parent [-]

Is the sloping voltage curve that much of a problem? ISTM it might simplify cell balancing and SOC determination.

aeonfox 3 days ago | parent [-]

I'd imagine it makes providing constant AC voltage to the engines pretty tough. It's even a problem for home energy storage because you need an inverter that can handle a very wide range of input voltages. Most inverters will cut off well before the Na-ion battery is full drained, vs a lithium which can go pretty much all the way to 0%.

amluto 2 days ago | parent [-]

I don’t know much about the kind of giant motor that would be used in a ship, but as a general principle: the load that a motor presents to the drive electronics does not resemble your house in the slightest.

To power your house (or, more generally, supply vaguely sine-wave like output at a constant voltage), you need a converter that will convert DC at the battery voltage to AC at the desired voltage. If a buck converter is used, for example, the AC voltage can only ever be lower than the battery voltage. If you use a cheap square wave inverter, it’s possible that the output and input voltages must actually be equal.

A motor, though, is a highly inductive load, and large motors will and do operate from truly gnarly supply waveforms as long as the current waveform is approximately correct. Industrial VFDs (variable frequency drives) do unspeakable things involving switching a DC bus voltage across the motor via H bridges at tens of MHz, which is a horrible thing to do the the wiring between the drive and the motor if it’s not extremely short. (There are, recently, some guidelines that specific types of wire with twisted conductors, better than average insulation, and high quality shields should be used to improve tolerance of the fact that rather impressive standing waves can appear in the wiring if the wiring is a quarter wavelength or longer.). I can easily imagine designing a VFD that works just fine over a respectable range of DC input voltages by adjusting its duty cycle accordingly.

One way to think of this is that a VFD looks kind of like a buck converter where the inductor is free in the sense that it’s already right there in the motor. If it’s designed right, it will handle the battery’s full voltage range, and the inductor will still be free :)

aeonfox 17 hours ago | parent [-]

> I can easily imagine designing a VFD that works just fine over a respectable range of DC input voltages by adjusting its duty cycle accordingly. [...] I can easily imagine designing a VFD that works just fine over a respectable range of DC input voltages by adjusting its duty cycle accordingly.

I imagine it's not the waveform or current that matters so much, as the voltage. These motors would be powering massive blades encountering incredible resistance, so you need megavolts to move them, with an input voltage all the way down to near zero.

> H bridges at tens of MHz

Imagine the MOSFETs on this thing! Do they have something that scales up to MV? That sounds like an engineering challenge in itself.

Full disclaimer: electronics is not my wheelhouse, though I have played around with motor controllers.

17 hours ago | parent [-]
[deleted]
algorias 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

The biggest problem with Electric is the battery weight, so it makes sense.

Ships deliberately use cheaper, less energy dense petroleum products (heavy fuel oil), for pretty much the inverse reasons why airplanes use kerosene.

PunchyHamster 3 days ago | parent [-]

Not really, kerosene is pretty close to heavy fuel oil on density.

Planes run on kerosene because it's universal enough, hard to run them on heavy fuel, and there is issue with high emission of the HFO over population centers which isn't as much of a problem in middle of sea