As nutty as it may seem - All moderation is part of the “censorship industrial complex”.

Frankly this was inevitable. There is a reckoning that has been put off, within the groups that champion free speech. Mods happen to be the people who see how the sausage is made, but have no real ability to be heard.

The Zeitgeist is still happy to say “censorship bad”, thus moderation bad. The work of ensuring “healthy” communities or debate is left to the magic of the “market place of ideas”.

Except the market place is well and truly broken, captured and unfair for regular users. We have a dark forest for content consumers.

This conversation needs to be had.

Edit: tried to make the tone less frustrated.

▲

onjectic 2 hours ago | parent [-]

We need to have a serious conversation about the pros and cons of anonymity on public online forums. It’s objectively an unnatural form of communication, most of us see the harm, but we also don’t want to swing towards mass surveillance(which is a very real risk).

EDIT: By unnatural I am referring to not knowing who you are talking to, not knowing the slightest thing about them, our brains don’t process this aspect for what it is, instead we fill in this identity with our imaginations. Perhaps there was a better word for this than unnatural, but to me its especially unnatural because it doesn’t really occur in nature(at least not easily), where as communication across long distances or time happens all the time in nature. TLDR: It’s unnatural that we no longer even know if a comment was written by a human.

EDIT2: I am not strongly in favor of removing anonymity from the internet. I don’t know what the answer is.

▲

pjc50 an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Plenty of people are happy to publish calls for war crimes in the newspapers under their own name, or on the Secretary for Defence letterhead.

▲

seanp2k2 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The dystopian surveillance state is already here: https://youtu.be/Pp9MwZkHiMQ

▲

logicchains an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> It’s objectively an unnatural form of communication

Communication with people half the way across the globe at the speed of light is objectively unnatural too, should we ban that? There's no "we" calling for the end of online anonymity excepts for spooks and people who believe people should be identified and punished for expressing opinions they disagree with.

	▲	onjectic 2 minutes ago \| parent [-]
		There is absolutely a growing concern over how easy it is to create entirely fake conversations, debates, outrage, recommendations and concerns online. We didn’t have these platforms 30 years ago. We need to all ask what we gained and what we lost with them, because they are causing real harm, and most of it is because anyone or anything can pretend to be something they are not. They have benefits as well. I would think the modern day spook very much prefers how things currently are. Would the modern day authoritarian love an online ID system, yes, so we need to tread carefully.

▲

krapp an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Any form of communication other than grunting and howling from trees is "objectively an unnatural form of communication."

Attaching your real world identity to every interaction you have on the internet is no more objectively natural than doing otherwise, and more of a burden than we place on interactions in the real world. I don't exchange my drivers license and SSL with everyone I talk to.

We don't need to have the serious conversation, we've had it, and the false dichotomy you're presenting here is invalid. We don't have to choose one or the other. Anonymity has been well established in every free society as legally and morally defensible and a necessity for free speech and a free state for decades, to the point of including some degree of anonymity from one's own government.

Moderation beyond strictly legal content is acceptable. Anonymity is also acceptable. 4chan can be 4chan, and other places can not be 4chan. Free speech does not guarantee you a platform, much less all platforms. It doesn't require me to put a target on my back, either.

▲

intended 39 minutes ago | parent [-]

While the point made on unnatural communication is undefined, this three positions are in conflict.

- The updated visa instructions - we have had this conversation - Moderation beyond strictly legal content is acceptable.

I will say this shows the conversation hasn’t been had.

Moderation is most often achieved by the use of censorial powers on private platforms.

That this was private censorship is no longer acceptable to the current regime, and people who were enforcing private rules are now in a category of applicants that I assume includes criminals and enemies of the state.

If it is an acceptable role, then it must be done well.

If it is an unacceptable criminal role, then it must be prohibited well.

Either way - people have to make that call and build a consensus on it.

	▲	krapp 12 minutes ago \| parent [-]
		>I will say this shows the conversation hasn’t been had. It has been had. But you seem to require some objectively correct and universally agreed upon consensus that will never exist. >Moderation is most often achieved by the use of censorial powers on private platforms. "censorial powers on private platforms" are and have been acceptable since the dawn of mass communications. Even Ben Franklin when he ran a newspaper refused to run stories he considered too libelous (although he just as often ran such stories, exercising personal bias in his decisions.) The entire rationale behind the First Amendment is that it binds the government from interfering with free expression, because that right belongs to the people, implicit as it is in the concept of the marketplace of ideas, and freedom of association. Again, the conversation has been had, and the matter has been settled at least for most people. That the current regime disagrees doesn't prove anything any more than disagreement with anything else. People disagree that the world is round, that doesn't mean the matter is still in dispute beyond a reasonable doubt. >and people who were enforcing private rules are now in a category of applicants that I assume includes criminals and enemies of the state. If they commit crimes, have them arrested for those crimes. If they violate TOS (even if they happen to be a sitting President), ban them. Otherwise even criminals and traitors have the same rights as everyone else. Again, this is well established and shouldn't be controversial. > If it is an acceptable role, then it must be done well. > If it is an unacceptable criminal role, then it must be prohibited well. what kind of force is "must" implying here, and how is "well" being defined? We do have legal frameworks in place intended to do what you're proposing, but people are imperfect and may make mistakes or act in ways you might consider to be in error, without falling afoul of criminality. But that's acceptable. We don't abandon rights because they can't be defined or defended perfectly.