| ▲ | bryanlarsen 11 hours ago |
| Hydro energy generation is fairly built out, but the Nordics have lots of places suitable to build out hydro energy storage. Hydro generation requires a flow to dam, but storage doesn't. |
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| ▲ | Tuna-Fish 10 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| We don't really. Hydro storage requires reservoirs where you can freely adjust the water level. Most of our lakes have shorelines that have been built out, and the property owners get really angry if you suggest frequently adjusting the water level significantly. The largest planned hydro storage projects are using decommissioned mines, and those are going to run out quickly. |
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| ▲ | fifilura 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | You could just build a back-channel for the existing hydro-dams? Those reservoirs are only full for a short period and that is when you dont need pump energy. | | |
| ▲ | 2000UltraDeluxe 37 minutes ago | parent [-] | | But where? In Finland, at least, the land is relatively flat when compared with Norway and Sweden, and with a large rural population there aren't really any good locations. In my local area, we had major flooding this spring because the hydro plant operators were sleeping on the job (or whatever they did instead of regulating water levels). And that was a simple 2m increase in water levels. NO/SE have some more geographically suitable locations, but last time I checked, flooding them was considered too environmentally destructive too the local environment. |
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| ▲ | bryanlarsen 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | You could use the ocean for the bottom level and an artificial reservoir for the top level. You're not going to noticeably affect ocean levels. Or just use a large lake. You're not going to noticeably affect the water levels of a large lake. You might pump 10 billion litres of water, which is .02% of the volume of Mjøsa. | | |
| ▲ | vkou 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | > You could use the ocean for the bottom level and an artificial reservoir for the top level. You're not going to noticeably affect ocean levels. Then you have to deal with the problem of sea water corroding everything it touches. > You might pump 10 billion litres of water, which is .02% of the volume of Mjøsa. It's not the amount of water that you pump, it's the amount * the elevation delta. Where are you planning on getting the elevation delta from? Neither of these challenges is technically insurmountable, but this is a field where capex + opex/KWH is everything. | | |
| ▲ | bryanlarsen 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Where are you planning on getting the elevation delta from? Elevation delta is not hard to find in Norway! A typical pumped storage facility uses 100m of delta; I imagine Norwegian ones would use more. > but this is a field where capex + opex/KWH is everything. And pumped storage is significantly cheaper for seasonal storage than any proposed alternatives. The original post is efficient for heat storage, but converting low grade heat to electricity is not efficient. | | |
| ▲ | skybrian 9 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | For some applications, you don't actually convert the heat to electricity. This sounds pretty cheap if it works out: https://austinvernon.site/blog/standardthermal.html | |
| ▲ | kmacdough 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > A typical pumped storage facility uses 100m of delta Most projects seek 200-600m. This map doesn't even consider pumped hydro <200m: https://maps.nrel.gov/psh > And pumped storage is significantly cheaper for seasonal storage than any proposed alternatives. Based on what? Cost is particularly variable for pumped hydro. It can be one of the cheaper options when stars align. But you need 1) a suitable geography that minimizes the cost of damming or digging a resivoir with sufficient head 2) available for development without too much backlash 3) Near enough grid resources to minimize infrastructure and line losses. I'm surely leaving pieces out. It can be cheap, but it has far more hoops to jump than alternatives like batteries, hot sand and other "storage-in-a-building" designs which can be built where needed and using fairly standard industrial construction. |
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| ▲ | magicalhippo 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| True, but that disrupts ecosystems. Or so the argument against go building storage dams go. That said, there's been a fair bit of talk here in Norway recently about tax incentives blocking hydro owners from upgrading old generators, improving efficency. Apparently a lot of currently unused power available if they "just" did that. |
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| ▲ | tempestn 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I wonder if it's possible to also increase the amount of generation on existing dams? I could imagine there being situations where there's excess peak flow capacity but it isn't utilized because the flow rate would be unsustainable. But if we're looking for storage it could make sense. | |
| ▲ | foota 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I think hydro storage is a lot less disruptive because you don't need as much space. Traditional hydro reservoirs have to last all season. |
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| ▲ | beambot 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Hydro doesn't work so well when things freeze over. Geothermal on the other hand... |
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| ▲ | bryanlarsen 10 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It doesn't get cold enough for long enough for lakes to freeze solid. | | |
| ▲ | bawolff 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | I imagine the thaw/freeze cycle would be hell on the equipment to run pumped hydro storage. Are there extant succesful examples of pumped hydro in cold regions? | | |
| ▲ | kalleboo 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | You have Juktan in northern Sweden which was pumped hydro from 1978-1996, and now they want to re-build it back into pumped hydro again https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juktans_kraftstation | |
| ▲ | 7952 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Surely the turbines could be fed from subsurface water that is not frozen. | |
| ▲ | bryanlarsen 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | A reversable pump-turbine is not significantly different from a standard hydro generation turbine, and there are tons of examples of those operating in cold regions. | |
| ▲ | gpm 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Are there extant succesful examples of pumped hydro in cold regions? There's some pumped hydro at Niagara falls in Canada, which is far enough North that it should see a bit of a that/freeze cycle but is still a relatively mild climate. Don't know anything about what issues this does/doesn't present to them, just happen to know it exists. | | |
| ▲ | numbsafari 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | For reference, Niagara Falls is at roughly the same latitude as Barcelona and Milan. Vääksy, Finland, is approximately 1,250 miles (2k km) north of there, slightly north of Anchorage, Alaska. | | |
| ▲ | gpm 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Latitude is a poor point of comparison here, North America tends to be substantially colder than Europe at the same latitude. Or concretely Niagara Falls goes from an average low of -6.44 C in February to 21.0 C in July. Barcelona an average low of 4 C in January to 20.2 C in August (according to the internet). But yes, it's warmer than Finland, just cold enough to see something of a freeze that cycle. |
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| ▲ | Tuna-Fish 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | There's not much geothermal available when you are standing atop the baltic shield. | | |
| ▲ | jabl 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | They tried in southern Finland not long ago. At great expense and spending a lot of time they managed to drill down 6-7 km until they figured out that the porosity of the rock down there was so poor that it was impossible to make the project economical, so it was cancelled. The idea was to pump this heat directly into the district heating grid. | |
| ▲ | baq 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Either fusion or drill baby drill is necessary. Watt’s steam engine was absolutely horrible, but it was the worst steam engine ever built. If Finland builds the worst deep geothermal ever that still works, we can hope for better ones. Yeah I know drilling through ~8-10 kilometers of rock is kinda hard… they know, they tried, maybe it now is a good political climate to try again? | | |
| ▲ | distances 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Yeah I know drilling through ~8-10 kilometers of rock is kinda hard… they know, they tried, maybe it now is a good political climate to try again? The Finnish 7 kilometer geothermal drilling failed commercially, I guess that's what you're referring to. Is there any reason to assume drilling deeper would work? Ref. https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otaniemen_syv%C3%A4rei%C3%A4t | | |
| ▲ | baq 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yeah, that’s the one. Economics of this are hard - but money is numbers in computers, it’s just a question of how serious the government is with getting it done - physics-wise it gets like 10-15C warmer with every km, which is important for the delta T obviously. I know nothing about drilling the extra couple km, though, only assuming it can be done with enough engineering. | | |
| ▲ | distances 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I understood that temperature wasn't the problem. How it works is that you pump water into one well, and get it out from an adjacent one. The main problem was permeability, they couldn't get the necessary flow rate between the wells. | | |
| ▲ | baq an hour ago | parent [-] | | Ah good to know, I for some reason thought it wasn't hot enough. Sounds like they need to figure out horizontal drilling 8km deep in volcanic rock. |
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| ▲ | Tuna-Fish 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Or just fission, we know how to do that. 8-10km is not anywhere enough, the Baltic Shield is ~50km thick. | | |
| ▲ | baq 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | You don’t need to drill to magma, just deep enough to get to 120-130C rock. (‘Just’) | | |
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