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| ▲ | Mtinie 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | In this scenario the person who wants to be paid owns the output of the agent. So it’s closer to a contractor and subcontractor arrangement than employment. | | |
| ▲ | georgehotz an hour ago | parent [-] | | How do they own it? I see two scenarios. 1. They built the agent and it's somehow competitive. If so, they shouldn't just replace their own job with it, they should replace a lot more jobs and get a lot more rich than one salary. 2. They rent the agent. If so, why would the renting company not rent directly to their boss, maybe even at a business premium? I see no scenario where there's an "agent to do my work while I keep getting a paycheck." | | |
| ▲ | dr_dshiv an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | If you know contracting, you know that’s exactly how it’s always worked. | |
| ▲ | oarsinsync an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It's the equivalent of outsourcing your job. People have done this before, to China, to India, etc. There are stories about the people that got caught, e.g. with China because of security concerns, and with India because they got greedy, were overemployed, and failed in their opsec. This is no different, it's just a different mechanism of outsourcing your job. And yes, if you can find a way to get AI to do 90% of your job for you, you should totally get 4 more jobs and 5x your earnings for 50% reduction in hours spent working. | | |
| ▲ | georgehotz an hour ago | parent [-] | | Maybe a few people managed to outsource their own job and sit in the middle for a bit. But that's not the common story, the common story is that your employer cut out the middle man and outsourced all the jobs. The same thing will happen here. |
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| ▲ | EGreg 27 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Let me generalize The problem is the organizing principle for our entire global society is competition. This is the default, the law of the jungle or tribal warfare. But within families or corporations we do have cooperation, or a command structure. The problem is that this principle inevitably leads to the tragedy of the unmanaged commons. This is why we are overfishing, polluting the Earth, why some people are freeriding and having 7 children with no contraception etc. Why ecosystems — rainforests, kelp forests, coral reefs, and even insects — are being decimated. Why one third of arable farmland is desertified, just like in the US dust bowl. Back then it was a race to the bottom and the US Govt had to step in and pay farmers NOT to plant. We are racing to an AIpocalypse because what if China does it first? In case you think the world don’t have real solutions… actually there have been a few examples of us cooperating to prevent catastrophe. 1. Banning CFCs in Montreal Protocol, repairing hole in Ozone Layer 2. Nuclear non-proliferation treaty 3. Ban on chemical weapons 4. Ban on viral bioweapons research So number 2 is what I would hope would happen with huge GPU farms, we as a global community know exactly the supply chains, heck there is only one company in Europe doing the etching. And also I would want a global ban on AGI development, or at least of leaking model weights. Otherwise it is almost exactly like giving everyone the means to make chemical weapons, designer viruses etc. The probability that NO ONE does anything that gets out of hand, will be infinitesimally small. The probability that we will be overrun by tons of destructive bot swarms and robots is practically 100%. In short — this is the ultimate negstive externality. The corporations and countries are in a race to outdo each other in AGI even if they destroy humanity doing it. All because as a species, we are drawn to competition and don’t do the work to establish frameworks for cooperation the way we have done on local scales like cities. PS: meanwhile, having limited tools and not AGI or ASI can be very helpful. Like protein folding or chess playing. But why, why have AGI proliferate? |
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| ▲ | OtherShrezzing an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The AI agents don’t appear to know how & where to be economically productive. That still appears to be a uniquely human domain of expertise. So the human is there to decide which job is economically productive to take on. The AI is there to execute the day-to-day tasks involved in the job. It’s symbiotic. The human doesn’t labour unnecessarily. The AI has some avenue of productive output & revenue generating opportunity for OpenAI/Anthropic/whoever. | |
| ▲ | danenania 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | A question is which side agents will achieve human-level skill at first. It wouldn’t surprise me if doing the work itself end-to-end (to a market-ready standard) remains in the uncanny valley for quite some time, while “fuzzier” roles like management can be more readily replaced. It’s like how we all once thought blue collar work would be first, but it turned out that knowledge work is much easier. Right now everyone imagines managers replacing their employees with AI, but we might have the order reversed. | | |
| ▲ | jMyles an hour ago | parent [-] | | > This begs the question of which side agents will achieve human-level skill at first. I don't agree; it's perfectly possible, given chasing0entropy's... let's say 'feature request', that either side might gain that skill level first. > It wouldn’t surprise me if doing the work itself end-to-end (to a market-ready standard) remains in the uncanny valley for quite some time, while “fuzzier” roles like management can be more readily replaced. Agreed - and for many of us, that's exactly what seems to be happening. My agent is vaguely closer to the role that a good manager has played for me in the past than it is to the role I myself have played - it keeps better TODO lists than I can, that's for sure. :-) > It’s like how we all once thought blue collar work would be first, but it turned out that knowledge work is much easier. Right now everyone imagines managers replacing their employees with AI, but we might have the order reversed. Perfectly stated IMO. |
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| ▲ | zwnow 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | How are businesses going to get money if there are no humans that are able to pay for goods? Lots of us are not cut out for blue collar work. | | |
| ▲ | lurk2 an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | > How are businesses going to get money if there are no humans that are able to pay for goods? By transacting with other businesses. In theory comparative advantage will always ensure that some degree of trade takes place between completely automated enterprises and comparatively inefficient human labor; in practice the utility an AI could derive from these transactions might not be worth it for either party—the AI because the utility is so minimal, and the humans because the transactions cannot sustain their needs. This gets even more fraught if we assume an AGI takes control before cheaply available space flight, because at a certain point having insufficiently productive humans living on any area of sea or land becomes less efficient than replacing the humans with automatons (particularly when you account for the risk of their behaving in unexpected ways). | |
| ▲ | vbezhenar an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Some humans will be rich and they'll buy things. For example those humans who own AI or fabs. And those humans, who serve to them (assuming that there will be services not replaced by AI, for example prostitution), will also buy things. If 99.99% of other humans will become poor and eventually die, it certainly will change economy a lot. | | |
| ▲ | ares623 an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | That’s assuming a large chunk of humanity will just lay down and die off. | | | |
| ▲ | coliveira an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | The 99% of humans will band together and destroy the ones who "own" things. |
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| ▲ | Joker_vD an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There is an amount of people who own, well, in the past we could say "means of production" but let's not. So, they own the physical capital and AI worker-robots, and this combination produces various goods for human use. So they (the people who own that stuff) trade those goods between each other since nobody owns the full range of production chains. The people who used to be hired workers? Eh, they still own their ability to work (which is now completely useless in the market economy) and nothing much more so... well, they can go and sleep under the bridge or go extinct or do whatever else peacefully, as long as they don't try to trespass on the private property, sanctity and inviolability of which is obviously crucial for the societal harmony. So yeah, the global population would probably shrink down to something in the hundreds millions or so in the end, and ironically, the economy may very well end up being self-sustainable and environmentally green and all that nice stuff since it won't have to support the life standards of ~10 billions, although the process of getting there could be quite tumultous. | | |
| ▲ | coliveira an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Thanos at least planed to destroy only 1/2 of the population. This is already beyond dystopian. | |
| ▲ | zwnow an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | This is disgusting to read, not going to lie. Hopefully the workers just lynch the people who enriched themselves on other peoples work. | | |
| ▲ | bigstrat2003 11 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I didn't read the parent comment as endorsing that outcome, simply predicting that if people chase profits without regard for the well being of their fellow man, that's where we might end up heading. I think the question we have to answer is "how can we prevent that?", because history has shown us that humans are very happy to run roughshod over others to enrich themselves. | | |
| ▲ | zwnow a minute ago | parent [-] | | It for sure is endorsed by the tech billionaires... Humans greed is just so tiring to me. I am so fucking tired of seeing good people suffer while some tech bros wipe their asses with pure gold. |
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| ▲ | macintux an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | As long as someone else is still paying their employees, it’s all good. |
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| ▲ | fijiaarone 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Can you explain why we pay Sam Altman & Elon Musk? Or Jeff Bezos & Bill Gates? They’re just middlemen collecting money for other people’s labor. | | |
| ▲ | georgehotz 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | You are welcome to try to cut them out and start your own business. But I suspect you might find it a bit harder than your employer signing up for a SaaS AI agent. Actually wait, isn't that what this website is? Does it work? | |
| ▲ | gridspy 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | They are a bridge between those with money and those with skill. Plus they can aggregate information and act as a repository of knowledge and decision maker for their teams. These are valuable skills, though perhaps nowhere near as valuable as they end up being in a free market. | | |
| ▲ | gausswho an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Sounds like skills that bots already do better than humans. | |
| ▲ | nawgz 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | A mistake lies in thinking it’s a market, but it’s egregious you’d call it free |
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| ▲ | coliveira an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Scam Altman and Musk are paid to manipulate stock markets and enrich themselves and their friends. | |
| ▲ | dboreham 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | This is backwards. Those people got into the positions they have by having money to spend, not because someone wanted to pay them to do something. (Or they had a way to have control over spending someone else's money.) | | |
| ▲ | georgehotz 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Do people on Hacker News actually believe this? Each one of the four people named built a product I happily pay for! Then they used investment and profits to hire people to build more products and better products. There's a lot of scammers in the world, but OpenAI, Tesla, Amazon, and Microsoft have mostly made my life better. It's not about having money, look at all the startups that have raised billions and gone kaput. Vs say Amazon who raised just $9M before their $54M IPO and is still around today bringing tons of stuff to my door. | | |
| ▲ | coliveira an hour ago | parent [-] | | The most successful scammers will provide you with something of value and then act to swindle you and many others of multiple times the amount of "value" they're generating. With Musk and their friends it seems to be the pattern. | | |
| ▲ | georgehotz 42 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Musk sells several things. Electric cars for $40k-$100k. Satellite internet for $40-$120 per month. X/Grok premium for $8/mo. And space launch services for about $2,500 per kg. Which one(s) of these are the scam? Prices seem decent to me, but if you tell me where I can get cheaper and better I'm open to it. | | |
| ▲ | hnjobsearch 24 minutes ago | parent [-] | | The "scam" part of Tesla has been well-documented, from their failure to deliver reliable full self-driving to the Cybertruck's low quality manufacturing, there is a lot of information out there about it. I can't comment on the other things. | | |
| ▲ | georgehotz 16 minutes ago | parent [-] | | comma.ai owns a lot of cars, including a Tesla, so I have tried most cars in the price range. Tesla is certainly no more of a scam than the other cars, and compared to say, the Chevy Bolt, it's a lot better. Can you suggest a better car for the value? Is there another car I can buy with better full self driving? |
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