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bakugo 6 hours ago

> Right now demand for DRAM is extremely high bordering on endless

Why is demand extremely high right now when it wasn't a couple of months ago? What changed since then that caused it to triple overnight?

TrainedMonkey 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Fundamentally because demand and supply curves are lagged. This drives DRAM flood and drought cycles. Right now high DRAM prices are driving fab investment up and demand down. In 3-5 years new fabs will cause DRAM glut that will drive prices down. Lower prices will stimulate demand via things like doubling DRAM size in consumer electronics as companies compete on getting the number bigger. Eventually demand curve will eclipse the supply and we will end up in the DRAM drought again.

This time things are further complicated by the fact that the world is investing a sizable chunk of GDP into building RAM hungry data centers in hopes of building a god which will convert the rest of the world into data centers.

vablings 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The biggest issue here is that it hurts smaller consumers. Scaling up a fab to produce ram takes 5+ years, people generally buy new hardware ~5 years so this lifecycle of hardware for some people is now locked out. Let's say you was due for an upgrade this year you now might be priced out of the market for the next 5 years and basically due to poor business practices

There is a similar issue happening in the manufacturing space where metal foundries are basically "full" up on allocation for other customers and will refuse to sell to you unless your purchase order is six digits otherwise you pay a hefty premium which once again drives capital towards larger corporations. Compounded by a stagnant jobs market the means that scarcity is just going up and up and nobody is re-investing to meet consumer demands because the market is poisoned by speculation to the absolute extreme

ffsm8 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Do people really still upgrade so often? I mean it made sense pre 2015 for desktops, and pre 2020 for laptops... But since... Not much has changed from a performance standpoint.

Even gpus hardly advanced since 2022 (4090) and the next generation is at least 1++ years off. Likely 2-3... And it's unclear wherever it will actually be an upgrade or more of the AI shenanigans they released with the 50 generation.

o11c an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Laptops are pretty fragile, especially with how a lot of people treat them. Replacement is due to breakage, not obsolescence.

pimeys 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Well, I just updated my 5950x with 128 GB to AMD Strix Halo with the same amount of much faster RAM. It is noticeable faster, but what's better: the whole computer is tiny and sips energy.

I'm very happy I ordered this in the summer, framework delivered it to me early this month. I wonder will these machine just be out of stock now or the price goes up a lot...

ghurtado 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> in hopes of building a god which will convert the rest of the world into data centers

I'm as pro AI as it comes, and I love your way of putting it. Very poignant.

tonyhart7 39 minutes ago | parent [-]

if its what it takes then so be it

which company achieve AGI first would be a quadrillion company

brennanpeterson 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

This isn't true. It used to be, as a new fab would appreciably add quantity. At 1M wspm in 2015, a new 100k fab at the most modern node would add effectively 20-30% capacity, and usually multiple.players at once, since all had cash.

Now, the relative shrink is tiny, so capacity adds are just wspm, in effect, and that gives 5%.

Put differently, you cannot invest your way out of the shortage, or into meaningful share....so you take profit.

gertlex an hour ago | parent [-]

apparently wspm is Wafer Starts Per Month

guess I'm interpretting "1million wspm; add 10%; was effectively a 20-30% capacity increase" in 2015.

Not sure where 5% then comes from. Guessing "relative shrink" is referring to process size (5, 4, 2 nm, whatever) not linearly corresponding to density of transistors, etc.

davoneus 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I've heard it was Sam Altman and OpenAI basically buying every wafer available from both Samsung and SKHynix at the start of October.

Neither company know of the other purchase until it was a done deal.

Panzer04 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Kind of funny to see manufacturers get screwed by their own opaque pricing policies for once.

All well and good when you're dictating terms with dozens of buyers, but probably not so much when a single buyer is dictating terms to a couple of sellers.

Scaevolus 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The CEO of OpenAI and OpenAI didn't coordinate?

ndriscoll 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Samsung and SK Hynix. OpenAI made deals to buy almost half of manufactured DRAM in the world. There's speculation that after this was announced, other companies started making their own deals in a panic, further driving demand.

lucb1e 2 hours ago | parent [-]

> after this was announced, other companies started making their own deals in a panic, further driving demand.

Oh ffs it's like the toilet paper thing. I was amazed how long that continued despite credible sources saying there is no shortage, just insane demand from the loonies that don't believe it would return to normal instantly if they would just stop buying more and more extras because "see, it's out again!"

zozbot234 2 hours ago | parent [-]

This is almost certainly what's going on right now in the retail market. OTOH it's also a semi-rational response to volatility and uncertainty as to future wholesale prices, due to, e.g. the projected build-out of future AI datacenters. As with any durable good, whenever the price might be expected to rise in the future, people will want to hoard stockpiles and the expected price rise will be brought forward to the present.

lysace an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Is DRAM built using the same process/node as GPUs?

loeg 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It didn't triple overnight. Contracts for 2026-2027+ hyperscaler orders get negotiated gradually over time and when those contracts are N% higher than last year, ~all supply is spoken for.

ares623 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Maybe Some nerds joked at lunch that if we hoard all the RAM we cut it off from competitors. They saw what COVID did to supply chains and thought they’d be so smart if they could simulate it.

bigiain 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

DRAM 2025 as toilet paper from 2020. Seems plausible.

gishh 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

No no no, it’s all just the bullwhip effect, remember? Remember when prices went fucking nuts during Covid and then dropped?

Oh wait, they never fucking dropped.

Still waiting, all you bullshit, er, bullwhip truthers out there.

alephnerd 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Why is demand extremely high...

Data Center projects that were announced a couple months ago are now beginning to be built out.

Additionally, there have been some supply chain issues the past few years due to trade wars between the US, SK, and China [0], along with the earthquake that hit Taiwan last year [1].

Generally, you feel the pain of supply chain issues within 6-18 months of the initial incident, which is where we are now at because stockpiles have been reduced significantly.

[0] - https://www.digitimes.com/news/a20230310PD204/chip-war-memor...

[1] - https://www.reuters.com/technology/micron-flags-hit-its-dram...

0manrho 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

People pulling their heads out of their ass as to how to actually deploy these systems at scale (AKA to do this effectively, you need to do more than just throw pallets of GPU's at it, such as properly considering Topologies of both NVMe-over-Fabric and PCIe roots/lanes [0]) combined with advances in various technologies (eg RDMA, CXL, cuDF/BaM/GPUD2S/etc) that meaningfully enhance how system ram can be integrated and leveraged are a big part of it.

Also we're hitting that 5 years after DDR5 being readily available which means that a lot of existing enterprise hardware that was on DDR4 is going EOL and being replaced with DDR5 which, given many platforms these days have many more channels available than previously, results in more DRAM being bought than was previously used per node and in total. A lot of enterprise was still buying new DDR4 into 2023 as it was a more affordable way to deploy systems with lots of PCIe lanes which was more important than any the costs associated with the performance gain from DDR5 or related CPU's. (Also, early days DDR5 wasn't really any faster than DDR4 with how loose the timing was unless you were willing to pay a BIG premium)

Regarding the hype of the day: AI specifically, part of it is the rise of wrappers and agents and inference in general that can run on CPU's/leverage system ram. These usecases aren't as sensitive to latency as the training side of things as the network latency from the remote user to the datacenter means latency hits due to hitting the CPU ringbus(infinity fabric, QPI, whatever you want to call it) results in a much less significant share over the overall overhead, and the cost/benefit/availability concerns there has also increased the demand for non-GPU AI compute and RAM.

I wouldn't rule out corruption/price fixing (They've done it before) but I have no evidence of this. Wouldn't surprise me, but I don't think this is it (unless this problem persists for several quarters/years)

There's some geopolitics and FOMO (Corporate keeping up with the joneses) and economics that goes into this as well but I can't really speculate on that specifically, that's not really my area of expertise. Suffice to say, it's kind of like a bank run where it's not so much that the demand itself hit the curve of the hockey stick, but it was gradually increasing until it hit a threshold that was starting to cause delays in delivery/deployments. Given how important many companies view being on the cutting edge here, this lead to sudden spike in volume customers willing to pay premiums for early delivery to hit deployment deadlines, artificially inflating demand and further constraining supply, which just fed back into that feedback loop pushing transient demand even higher.

0: Yes NVMe NAND flash is different than DRAM flash, but the systems/clusters that host the NVMe JBOD's tend to use lots of sysRAM for their index/metadata/"superhot" data layer (think memcached, Redis, the MDS nodes for Lustre, etc), and with the advent of CXL and SCM you can deploy even more DRAM to a cluster/fabric than what is strictly presented by the CPU/mobo's memory controllers/channels. This is not driving overall market volume, but is a source of fierce competition for supply at the very "top" of the DRAM/Flash market.

TL;DR: Convergence of a lot of things driving demand.