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komali2 9 hours ago

> but ad blocking is definitely piracy

This is a huge escalation of an already over-stuffed term.

Equating piracy to theft was bad enough, now choosing to not view ads is also piracy, which is theft?

I try to be chill here but no, foot down, absolutely not. Blocking ads is nothing more than determing what content comes in on the wire to the computer you own, or what content is rendered in your web browser. That's it. If that means someone isn't making money when they could be, well, too bad so sad.

It's like, "if you walk past a Nike store without pausing to hear the sales pitch, you are stealing from Nike." Capitalist hellscape.

JAlexoid 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

If we're going with bad analogies I have an opposite one - you're walking past the Nike store and the store has a promotion on "Watch 5 minutes of ads and get a free pair of shoes", but you instead kick the TV with the ads over, grab the shoes and run away.

Or are you going to pretend that there's no agreement between you and YouTube that you're going to watch ads in exchange for the free content?

baumy 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I will not be pretending that. I am _asserting_ it. I made no such agreement with YouTube. I am very confused why you think I did

JAlexoid 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Are you going to lie that you didn't know that the videos are shown to you in exchange for ads?

Entering into a contract doesn't necessarily require you to sign a document. Quite a few contracts that we make every day require no formal acceptance, like entering a shop.

baumy 7 hours ago | parent [-]

No, I'm going to state the truth that I never agreed to be shown ads, and you are extremely weird for lying and claiming that I did.

Google wants to show me ads. I don't want to see them. I demonstrated this by blocking them. Google continues to show me videos anyway. Clearly they're ok with the arrangement. They are free to present me with written terms, or gate all their videos behind a login, but they choose not to do so.

You are either very confused or playing stupid for some reason that I don't understand, but it isn't amusing or cute. This will probably earn me a dang warning but I don't really care - you are full of shit. You're making claims all over this thread that you've literally just made up.

HDThoreaun 7 hours ago | parent [-]

Grocery store wants me to buy groceries. I steal them instead. Grocery store didn’t ban me so clearly they don’t mind me taking goods without paying. Grocery store is free to require membership like Costco but they don’t, so clearly they are ok with the situation.

sidrag22 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

did you give the grocery store an account name and tons of other information while stealing and they still allowed it? and welcomed you back the next visit, for years on end using those same credentials?

also did the grocery store start out as a free food store similarly to youtube? and then just expect people pay despite not enforcing it?

baumy 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

This is juvenile nonsense.

I can point directly to the law in whatever jurisdiction you care to name that makes doing what you describe illegal.

You cannot point to anything that makes it illegal to view videos on a publicly accessible website without watching the ads that usually play before them.

HDThoreaun 5 hours ago | parent [-]

This is how I feel about claiming that stealing from YouTube isn’t actually stealing. Juvenile nonsense. That’s why I came up with a nonsense counter argument

komali2 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Negative proof. We've no obligation to prove your point for you.

You claim we're stealing.

In Texas, theft is a crime per Sec. 31.03:

> THEFT. (a) A person commits an offense if he unlawfully appropriates property with intent to deprive the owner of property.

Please link the law, and jurisdiction, that is broken when I view a YouTube video and don't view the ad.

https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/PE/htm/PE.31.htm#31....

Nobody disagrees with you that YouTube wants us to view ads.

HDThoreaun 4 hours ago | parent [-]

I don’t give a shit about laws. Common sense and morality are what matter to me and taking without paying will always be stealing according to both. I’m not trying to prove anything to you, other than how juvenile it is to hide behind laws and technicalities I guess.

komali2 4 hours ago | parent [-]

> Common sense and morality

Hah! Someone after my own heart. Well, since we're not talking law, let's get into it!

First of all, all profit is theft. Your boss and shareholders are only able to make money because they steal margin from your labor.

In this case, Youtube may be providing a platform, but what it gets in return is far more than it gives back to creators. Creators have no rights when it comes to Youtube - I can list many who were nixxed from Youtube because they violated a specific subset of neoliberal, puritanical "ethics." For example, Youtube will delist or demonetize videos that have too many swear words in them, or videos that discuss things that aren't illegal but Youtube doesn't like, such as adblockers or emulation software.

This is unethical. Youtube has no value outside of its creators. Yet it has total say over what kinds of content creators are allowed to make, and it sets the prices for creators, keeping the lion's share for itself. That is theft.

Youtube abuses its users as well, cramming features we don't want down our throats, like "Shorts" (puke) and increasingly longer ads. I know for a fact not enough revenue is going to the creators because they still need to seek external sponsorship, resulting in double-ads: youtube ones, and then sponsored portions of videos. Youtube also constantly enshittifies the UI. And, despite its puritanical neoliberal ethics, it does basically nothing about the extensive racist content on its platform (any video featuring black people doing just about anything will have years-old comments on it with racist content). And don't even get me started on the freakshow that is Youtube Kids. Just search "Elsagate."

Youtube feeds into the demonstrably mentally unhealthy attention economy and engages in dark pattern UX.

Youtube is undergoing platform enshittification, making things worse for its creators and users in order to extract as much profit as possible. It's not illegal, but it's certainly unethical. Given their shittiness, it's completely reasonable to leverage tooling to block their shitty ads. And don't pretend like this harms creators in any meaningful way. If I buy one t-shirt from a creator I like (which I do, frequently), I've given them more revenue per head than if I watched every single one of their videos, start to finish, one hundred times, with no ad blocking.

tailrecursion 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I agree with this. There was no meeting of the minds, no contract. But, the terms in the Google account probably include something about the terms for viewing youtube videos.

JAlexoid 7 hours ago | parent [-]

You seem to mistakenly believe that a contract requires some sort of a signed document or something.

You know that when a public pace of business has "No dogs" sign and you enter it, that you entered into a contract with that business... right? And it doesn't matter if you noticed it or not.

jemmyw 7 hours ago | parent [-]

> You know that when a public pace of business has "No dogs" sign and you enter it, that you entered into a contract with that business

You are incorrect about that, which probably invalidates your other arguments. A condition of entry is not a contract. If you disobey the condition of entry then you have not broken a contract, and nothing changes between you and the business owner. They can ask you to leave and they can trespass you if you do not, but importantly, they can do those things for any reason they like, whether you obey the conditions of entry or not.

It is not a contract by law, nor does it meet the definition of a contract.

Similarly, YouTube can retract their website from public view, or attempt to block you specifically. But you have not entered into a contract with them by viewing the site.

JAlexoid 7 hours ago | parent [-]

> A condition of entry is not a contract.

It's literally a legal contract, under contract law. It's called a unilateral contract.

I didn't expect a Dunning-Kruger effect on NH, but here we are.

ImPostingOnHN 4 hours ago | parent [-]

If you bring a dog in, you cannot be sued for any sort of tort relating to breach of contract. At most, you could be asked to leave, trespassed if you refuse, and sued for damages if the dog broke something or someone.

Please don't attack others, and in general, it's not a good idea to use terms like Dunning-Kruger when you are incorrect. Ad blocking is not piracy under any statuatory or case law, period.

Loudergood 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

and magically, the sneakers are also still there.

HDThoreaun 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The deal you make with YouTube is that you watch the ad in exchange for the video. Your argument is like “the cashier didn’t stop me from walking out of the grocery store so it’s not stealing”

Nextgrid 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I don’t make a deal when I visit a website, and especially not when I have to visit it because it became the de-facto standard when sharing video content. I just get my computer to ask for some bytes and the server happily sends them to me. If the server happened to send me some garbage in addition, I am free to make my computer ignore it.

JAlexoid 8 hours ago | parent [-]

You you do. Just because you don't understand contract law, doesn't mean that it doesn't apply.

This applies double, when you knowingly circumvent the agreement that "you're not aware of"

Nextgrid 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Sosumi?

Next time I’ll instead pay someone to watch the videos on my behalf and then summarize me the videos sans-ads.

Will you also sumi?

komali2 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You claim to know more than us.

I would love to be educated: when did I enter into an agreement with YouTube that I must watch ads to use their website?

YouTube is sueing me for damages. Their claim: I used their website but didn't watch the ads. (Maybe I used an ad blocker. Maybe I turned off my monitor and unplugged the speakers when the ads played. Maybe I walked away and let the ad play in a different room). What evidence do they submit in court to demonstrate I violated an agreement?

You've made quite a few comments across this thread, as have others that support your position. Not even within the YouTube TOS has anyone pointed out a contractual obligation to view ads. Not to mention YouTube doesn't require you to agree to their TOS to view videos.

With this in mind, it's perfectly understandable that someone could browse YouTube without any comprehension of something you seem totally confident on. I'm not being goofy here, I understand that YouTube wants me to view ads, I just genuinely am not aware of any contractual obligation to do so if I view videos.

rmunn 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What deal? What contract?

I'm serious. Show me in the Youtube Terms of Service where it says that blocking ads is against the contract. I've looked. Carefully. There is no such language there.

its_ethan 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I don't think you actually looked very closely, so it's weird you've doubled down on that lol

Item 2 of "Permissions and Restrictions" says you aren't allowed to "circumvent, disable, fraudulently engage with, or otherwise interfere with any part of the Service (or attempt to do any of these things), including security-related features or features that (a) prevent or restrict the copying or other use of Content or (b) limit the use of the Service or Content;"

where "content" is earlier defined as basically anything Google/YT sends you (which would include the ad).

A quick google search also takes you to a pretty straightforward statement from Google/YT: "When you block YouTube ads, you violate YouTube’s Terms of Service."

[TOS]: https://www.youtube.com/t/terms#c3e2907ca8

[Help Center]: https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/14129599?hl=en#:~:...

rmunn 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Definition of "Content" in their Terms of Service:

Content on the Service The content on the Service includes videos, audio (for example music and other sounds), graphics, photos, text (such as comments and scripts), branding (including trade names, trademarks, service marks, or logos), interactive features, software, metrics, and other materials whether provided by you, YouTube or a third-party (collectively, "Content”).

Where is advertising defined as "Content"? (EDIT: For clarity, this paragraph is my own words; the previous paragraph was the quote from the ToS).

Further, there's the "Our Service" paragraph:

"The Service allows you to discover, watch and share videos and other content, provides a forum for people to connect, inform, and inspire others across the globe, and acts as a distribution platform for original content creators and advertisers large and small."

The service acts as a distribution platform for "original content creators and advertisers", two different categories. There's content (made by content creators) and there's what advertisers produce.

If Youtube wanted to define advertising as part of the Content (capital letter because in legal matters, definitions in the contract matter, and that's the term that they defined), they had plenty of opportunity to do so.

The statement by Google that blocking ads is a violation of their ToS is, of course, their opinion. But what ultimately would matter in a lawsuit is the contract. And nowhere in the contract do they state that advertising is part of the Content.

Their best argument in a lawsuit would be that adblocking is "circumventing" part of the Service, because they have defined being a distribution platform for advertisers as being part of their Service. But considering that the actual function of adblocking is simply not making HTTP requests, it would be hard for them to make that hold up in court against a skilled lawyer.

I've looked at it, and I came to the conclusion that the "advertising is part of the Content" argument does not hold up to the actual terms of service, and that the "adblocking is circumventing the Service" part does not hold up either: to say that something running on my browser, that makes no attempt to change their code and only skips certain HTTP requests, counts as "circumventing" features is a stretch. It's the best argument, so thank you for making it. But it's just not strong enough to hold up to the "If Youtube wanted to explain that adblocking was a violation of the ToS, they had plenty of opportunity to lay that out in detail in plain English (well, lawyerese) in the ToS itself" argument which any skilled lawyer would present in court.

So I'll grant that it's possible to read "adblocking is a violation of the ToS" in the terms, if you peer at the penumbras and emanations of the wording. But at no point did they take the opportunity to lay it out in clear language. And statements from a spokesman are, legally speaking, worthless; only the language of the contract matters in a court case.

P.S. I've upvoted you, since you've actually taken a real look at the Terms of Service, unlike the guy making that grocery store analogy.

HDThoreaun 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

What contract do you make when you enter a grocery store?

rmunn 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

None at all. I walk in, I look at what's on offer, and if they don't have what I'm looking for, I leave without buying anything.

There's a legal obligation not to steal, of course, and if you want to call that a contract I can't stop you. But if you're claiming there's an implicit contract to buy something when you walk into a store, you're wrong.

Now, if I was walking into the store all the time just to stand around not buying anything, that would be trespassing, and if they asked me to leave their property I'd be obligated to follow their wishes. But if I'm walking in in order to buy some bananas, but they're nearly out of bananas and the ones they have left all look bad, then I'm perfectly within my rights to walk out without buying anything.

In what way are you claiming that the grocery store analogy holds to adblocking on Youtube?

defrost 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Nothing that obligates looking at in-store advertising.

Deaf and blind people are allowed to enter despite their inability to see and hear adverts and jingles.

Fully able people with headphones that avoid looking at ads are not ejected.

You have a very weak position here that isn't advanced by this analogy.

HDThoreaun 7 hours ago | parent [-]

If you want groceries you have to pay. If you want YouTube videos you need to pay by playing the ad(legally speaking, obviously you can steal if you like). I don’t see any difference.

rmunn 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Where's the obligation to watch ads spelled out? The legal obligation to pay for groceries is spelled out in the law: they are the possession of the store, and if you want to acquire them you need to exchange something else of value (money) for them, at which point they become yours.

What is the thing that compels you to watch ads on a service like Youtube? There's nothing in the law; if there is anything, it would be spelled out in the Youtube terms of service: https://www.youtube.com/t/terms

Can you find it for me? I've looked. Many times. It isn't there.

venturecruelty 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

YouTube sends my browser a lot of data, a LOT of data. It's not my fault if some of that data doesn't make it to the screen, or if hardware on my network blocks certain DNS requests. No, I asked YouTube for a web page, and it sent one back to me. I'm not sure why everyone is so eager to let someone else dictate what code they run on their own machine. It's really strange.

komali2 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> The deal you make with YouTube is that you watch the ad in exchange for the video.

Did I? Can you tell me where I made this deal? I navigated to YouTube.com, I don't see a contract, I don't see a place to sign or a hand to shake. Where is this bilateral agreement?

I think what you meant to say was, YouTube really very much wants me to watch their ads, and I don't care to, so I won't.

If your counter is that then YouTube will shut down, I say, oh well, I've already archived all the videos I care about, and someone else will replace them, or not, and either way life will go on.

JAlexoid 8 hours ago | parent [-]

> I've already archived all the videos I care about

That's quite literally what we call piracy.

justinclift 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

No, that's just a you thing.

Dylan16807 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

What makes it different from VHS?

JAlexoid 7 hours ago | parent [-]

It doesn't. Recording copyrighted material that has been broadcast is, in fact, copyright infringement.

Dylan16807 5 hours ago | parent [-]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Corp._of_America_v._Unive....

I don't know if you're making some edge case argument without elaborating, or if you're just being ridiculous.