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ghaff 6 hours ago

I also imagine a lot of people who are admiring these megacities have never been to one. Jakarta has oceans of scooters and, when I was there to visit some customers with our country manager, she had a driver. With some exceptions like Singapore, SE Asian cities are horrible to get around.

ecshafer 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Other than Singapore. I am not sure why SE Asian cities aren't going as all in on mass transit like China. Jakarta has a single subway line for 42 million people. They have some light rail line and buses. If you compare this with Tokyo, Shanghai, Beijing its really night and day.

lurk2 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The usual patterns that crop up are:

1) Lack of institutional knowledge. No one even knows how to get started and bringing in foreign expertise may be prohibitively expensive.

2) Economics don’t pencil out even in higher income countries compared to BRT systems, especially because high density and heavy traffic means the lines usually have to be grade-separated which adds additional costs compared to an at-grade system.

3) Corruption makes development impossible. No well-established processes for expropriation exist, or the country is given over to clientelism such that landlords won’t give up what they own and hamper the development process via political connections.

BRT is usually the most effective solution in places where grade-separated rail is not yet viable as it allows a right-of-way network to be established that can later be upgraded to rail. This doesn’t solve problem 3, which requires a comparatively authoritarian approach to overcome the incentive problems at play; this is why the Chinese have generally excelled in the space over the last 20 years.

ghaff 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Even in the US, a lot of right-of-ways were taken by the government for rail and, later, highways (which intersected with earlier railroads in many cases) before it would have been as difficult a process as it would be today. Not a political comment so much as an observation that it's harder to just take private land today.

snicky 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

For anyone interested in the issues with Indonesian economy, politics and development may I suggest a great book: Indonesia, Etc. by Elizabeth Pisani.

seanmcdirmid 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The water table surely has something to do with it, but they could put much of it above ground like Bangkok does (erm, Bangkok should be listed as doing ok, even if they aren't doing as well as Singapore).

China built A LOT in the last 15 years. Beijing before 2008 had line 1, 2, a couple of suburban lines (13 and another one out east), and that was it. I don't think any other country has ever built infrastructure so quickly, so it isn't really fair to compare them to China.

wdb 10 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Or electric bikes and cars

filloooo 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Democratic governments are weak on deficit spending, especially poor ones, the debt from their tiny stretch of high speed rail almost became a scandal.

ghaff 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Probably a combination of overall wealth and government policies/stability/priorities. I'd probably add Hong Kong to the list of cities with pretty good public transit but, overall, it's pretty bad in that area of the world relative to cities that you'd generally consider to be "good."

projectazorian 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Bangkok has built a lot of transit in the past decade, 6 lines on top of an already-substantial existing network. Still plenty of projects under construction as well. This alone puts it way ahead of Jakarta in terms of quality of life IMO.

nerdralph 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

KL has subways. Even better is the KL city bus network which is free, air conditioned, and has free wifi. Despite Malaysia being a nominally muslim state, I found it multicultural and tolerant. If it wasn't for the heat and humidity, I'd consider it a great place to retire.

gorbachev 4 hours ago | parent [-]

KL?

speedyapoc 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Kuala Lumpur

alephnerd 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> I am not sure why SE Asian cities aren't going as all in on mass transit like China

Eminent domain and mass demolitions were very common in 1990s-2010s China, and to a degree that I have not seen in other authoritarian and nominally communist states like Vietnam or even Laos, let alone other less authoritarian states.

Entire neighborhoods, villages, and towns were razed to build the urban areas that make up China today.

Beijing [0][1], Shanghai [2][3], and other cities across China [4] all saw massive urban demolitions until the Central Government banned them in 2021 during the Evergrande crisis [5] due to limited utility and rising urban discontent.

Back in the day, it was somewhat common to see news about some random Jie commiting a terrorist act in retaliation for being evicted from their homes [6][7] due to this urban demolition program, and partially helped Xi consolidate power as most officials affiliated with these programs were deeply corrupt, and were often felled during the anti-corruption purges (ironically, Xi oversaw similar initiatives in Zhejiang in the 2000s).

Most other governments don't see the utility of implementing a similar style of program.

[0] - https://www.smartcitiesdive.com/ex/sustainablecitiescollecti...

[1] - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/jun/06/sport.china

[2] - https://web.archive.org/web/20130324195541/http://www.unhabi...

[3] - https://archive.nytimes.com/sinosphere.blogs.nytimes.com/201...

[4] - https://www.sixthtone.com/news/1002775

[5] - https://english.www.gov.cn/statecouncil/ministries/202108/31...

[6] - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-18018827.amp

[7] - https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna34450213

exhilaration 17 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

In Beijing alone, some activists said more than 1 million people were forced from their homes to make way for new sports venues for last year's Olympics.

Wow...

LAC-Tech 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Even in democratic Taiwan they have this mindset to an extent - private land must not stand in the way of infrastructure.

alephnerd 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Taiwan's mass urban demolition spree happened towards the tail end of authoritarian rule, and did in fact play a role in garnering mass support for the democracy movement.

After democracy, Taiwan shifted towards trying to preserve traditional neighborhoods or working to normalize unofficial neighborhoods and slums - basically adopting a bottom up instead of top down approach [0]

[0] - https://www.taiwan-panorama.com/en/Articles/Details?Guid=5fc...

geodel 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Hehe. Great point. I have lived and worked in 2 Delhi and Mumbai in India. With such terrible living condition, traffic, pollution and so on it sucked the soul out of me. At least I found it so bad in Mumbai that many a times while leaving from work to hostel, I would literally cry on train platform with massive crowd pushing and shoving from all directions while trying to get into bursting at seams trains.

And this all is 20 years back. During this time thing have gone worse many times over.