| ▲ | Moss: a Rust Linux-compatible kernel in 26,000 lines of code(github.com) |
| 250 points by hexagonal-sun 6 days ago | 47 comments |
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| ▲ | hexagonal-sun 6 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| Hello! For the past 8 months, or so, I've been working on a project to create a Linux-compatible kernel in nothing but Rust and assembly. I finally feel as though I have enough written that I'd like to share it with the community! I'm currently targeting the ARM64 arch, as that's what I know best. It runs on qemu as well as various dev boards that I've got lying around (pi4, jetson nano, AMD Kria, imx8, etc). It has enough implemented to run most BusyBox commands on the console. Major things that are missing at the moment: decent FS driver (only fat32 RO at the moment), and no networking support. More info is on the github readme. https://github.com/hexagonal-sun/moss Comments & contributions welcome! |
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| ▲ | F3nd0 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Congratulations on the progress. If I may ask, I'm curious what considerations have motivated your choice of licence (especially since pushover licences seem extremely popular with all kinds of different Rust projects, as opposed to copyleft). | |
| ▲ | andrewl-hn 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > no networking support Would something like Smoltcp be of help here? https://github.com/smoltcp-rs/smoltcp Great project either way! How do you decide which sys calls to work on? Is is based on what the user space binaries demand? | | |
| ▲ | hexagonal-sun an hour ago | parent [-] | | Yip, I panic whenever I encounter a syscall that I can't handle and that prompts me to implement it. Yeah, I was thinking of integrating that at some point. They've done a really nice job of keeping it no_std-friendly. |
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| ▲ | Rochus 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Cool project, congrats. I like the idea with libkernel which makes debugging easier before going to "hardware". It's like the advantages of a microkernel achievable in a monolithic kernel, without the huge size of LKL, UML or rump kernels. Isn't Rust async/awat depending on runtime and OS features? Using it in the kernel sounds like an complex bootstrap challenge. | | |
| ▲ | kaoD 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Rust's async-await is executor-agnostic and runs entirely in userspace. It is just syntax-sugar for Futures as state machines, where "await points" are your states. An executor (I think this is what you meant by runtime) is nothing special and doesn't need to be tied to OS features at all. You can poll and run futures in a single thread. It's just something that holds and runs futures to completion. Not very different from an OS scheduler, except it is cooperative instead of preemptive. It's a drop in the ocean of kernel complexities. | | |
| ▲ | rcxdude 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Yeah, for example embassy-rs is an RTOS that uses rust async on tiny microcontrollers. You can hook task execution up to a main loop and interrupts pretty easily. (And RTIC is another, more radically simple version which also uses async but just runs everything in interrupt handlers and uses the interrupt priority and nesting capability of most micros to do the scheduling) | | |
| ▲ | Rochus 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Interesting references, thanks. Moss seems to be doing the same thing as Embassy. |
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| ▲ | Rochus 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Ok, I see. I spent a lot of time with .Net VMs, where you cannot simply separate await from the heavy machinery that runs it. I now understand that in a kernel context, you don't need a complex runtime like Tokio. But you still need a way to wake the executor up when hardware does something (like a disk interrupt); but this indeed is not a runtime dependency. EDIT: just found this source which explains in detail how it works: https://os.phil-opp.com/async-await/ | |
| ▲ | vlovich123 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | There’s got to be some complexity within the executor implementation though I imagine as I believe you have to suspend and resume execution of the calling thread which can be non-trivial. | | |
| ▲ | kaoD 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | You can implement an executor with threading to achieve parallelism, but it's not a fundamental characteristic of Future executors. To reiterate: an executor is just something that runs Futures to completion, and Futures are just things that you can poll for a value. See sibling comments for additional details. | | |
| ▲ | vlovich123 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | I’m aware; you’re not adding new information. I think you’re handwaving the difficulty of implementing work stealing in the kernel (interrupts and whatnot) + the mechanics of suspending/resuming the calling thread which isn’t as simple within the kernel as it is in userspace. eg you have to save all the register state at a minimum but it has to be integrated into the scheduler because the suspension has to pick a next task to execute and resume the register state for. On top of that you’ve got the added difficulty of doing this with work stealing (if you want good performance) and coordinating other CPUs/migrating threads between CPUs. Now you can use non interruptible sections but you really want to minimize those if you care about performance if I recall correctly. Anyway - as I said. Implementing even a basic executor within the kernel (at least for something more involved than a single CPU machine) is more involved, especially if you care about getting good performance (and threading 100% comes up here as an OS concept so claiming it doesn’t belies a certain amount of unawareness of how kernels work internally and how they handle syscalls). | | |
| ▲ | kaoD 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | No. I am adding new information but I think you are stuck on your initial idea. There's no work stealing. Async-await is cooperative multitasking. There is no suspending or resuming a calling thread. There is no saving register state. There is not even a thread. I will re-reiterate: async-await is just a state machine and Futures are just async values you can poll. I'm sure moss has an actual preemptive scheduler for processes, but it's completely unrelated to its internal usage of async-await. See embassy in sibling comments. |
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| ▲ | hexagonal-sun 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | This has been a real help! The ability to easily verify the behavior of certain pieces of code (especially mem management code) must have saved me hours of debugging. Regarding the async code, sibling posts have addressed this. However, if you want to get a taste of how this is implemented in Moss look at src/sched/waker.rs, src/sched/mod.rs, src/sched/uspc_ret.rs. These files cover the majority of the executor implementation. |
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| ▲ | IshKebab 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Impressive work! Do you have any goals, other than learning and having fun? Also how does it's design compare with Redox and Asterinas? | |
| ▲ | bramadityaw 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | shouldn't this be a ShowHN? | |
| ▲ | phkahler 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Love the MIT license. If this were further along we could use this as the foundation of our business without having to "give back" device drivers and other things. | | |
| ▲ | bfrog 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | This should be the sort of red flag to take note of. There’s an LLVM fork for every esoteric architecture now and this sort of thinking will lead to never being able to run your own software on your own hardware again. A reversion to the dark ages of computing. | | |
| ▲ | 533474 43 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Great, an MIT license to accelerate planned obsolescence and hardware junk. Truly a brilliant move | | |
| ▲ | surajrmal 15 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Linux magically solves this problem how? GPL isn't magic. It doesn't compel contributing upstream. And half of modern driver stacks live in userspace anyways. |
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| ▲ | imiric an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Seriously. To the author: kudos for the interesting project, but please strongly consider a copyleft license moving forward. |
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| ▲ | surajrmal 20 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Do you think soup kitchens and food banks should only serve food to those who volunteer? MIT is a perfectly fine FOSS license. | |
| ▲ | nickpsecurity an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | MIT licensed code is a gift. A gift indeed doesn't require the recipient to give back anything related to the gift. A "gift" requiring GPL-like conditions isn't really a gift in the common sense. It's more like a contractual agreement with something provided and specific, non-negotiable obligations. They're giving while also asserting control over others' lives, hoping for a specific outcome. That's not just a gift. People doing MIT license are often generous enough where the code is a gift to everyone. They don't try to control their lives or societal outcomes with extra obligations. They're just giving. So, I'm grateful to them for both OSS and business adaptations of their gifts. | | |
| ▲ | vacuity an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | While the FSF's vision for the GPL is clear, the GPL itself is not so powerful that it is more than a "gift" that has some terms if you want to do certain things you are not obligated to do. It is like a grant that enforces some reasonable conditions so the money isn't just misappropriated. I wouldn't give that to a friend for their birthday, but I think it's reasonable that powerful organizations should not be free to do whatever they want. Not that the GPL is perfect for that use, but it's good. | |
| ▲ | naasking an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | MIT is throwing a free party where food and drinks are paid for, and copyleft is where food is paid for but you BYOB. Both are fine, so what's the problem? | |
| ▲ | imiric an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | A gift where the recipient can remove the freedoms that they've been enjoying themselves is a bad deal for ensuring those freedoms are available to everyone. A permissive license is a terrible idea for a F/LOSS kernel. This is the paradox of tolerance, essentially. Also, seeing F/LOSS as a "gift" is an awful way of looking at it. | |
| ▲ | pessimizer an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | > It's more like a contractual agreement with something provided and specific, non-negotiable obligations. The obligation is not to the author of the code, it is to the public. MIT-style licenses are gifts to people and companies who produce code and software, copyleft licenses are gifts to the public. I don't give a shit about the happiness of programmers any more than the happiness of garbage collectors, sorry. I don't care more that you have access to the library you want to use at your job writing software for phones than I care that somebody has access to the code on their own phone. You're free to care about what you want, but the pretense at moral superiority is incoherent. It is non-negotiable. GPL is basically proprietary software. It's owned by the public, and all of the work that you do using it belongs to the public. If you steal it, you should be sued into the ground. |
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| ▲ | marty-oehme 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Very cool project! I do have to admit - looking far, far into the future - I am a bit scared of a Linux ABI-compatible kernel with an MIT license. |
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| ▲ | devnullbrain 5 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | It will be compatible for ~5 minutes: https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/v4.10/process/stable-api-non... | |
| ▲ | juliangmp 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I agree, I know a lot of people aren't huge fans of it but in the long run Linux being GPL2 was a huge factor in its success. | |
| ▲ | viraptor 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Too late? https://docs.freebsd.org/en/books/handbook/linuxemu/ | | |
| ▲ | jorvi 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Somewhere there is a dark timeline where the BSDs won, there are 50 commercial and open source variants all with their own kernel and userland. The only promise of interoperability is in extremely ossified layers like POSIX. There is, however, something terrible gathering its strength. A colossus. The great Shade that will eat the net. In boardroom meetings across the land, CTOs whisper its name and tremble... "OS/2." | |
| ▲ | andrewl-hn 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Also, AFAIK SmartOS / Ilumos has had a combat layer for it, too. |
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| ▲ | stingraycharles 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Why? | | |
| ▲ | p0w3n3d 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | because otherwise big tech companies will take it and modify and release hardware with it without releasing patches etc? Basically being selfish and greedy? | | |
| ▲ | sneak 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | It is neither selfish nor greedy to accept and use a gift freely given to you. Receiving a gift does not confer obligations on the recipient. | | |
| ▲ | Hendrikto 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | True, but you would probably still be pissed if somebody took your gift and hit you over the head with it. | |
| ▲ | mordae 37 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | It does. There is an implied expectation that the recipient will will not be selfish. They can pay it back, pay it forward, possibly later when they can afford it, etc., but they are expected not to be selfish and also give someone something eventually. |
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| ▲ | mnau 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Because unlike most other functionality, you generally need hw specs or cooperation to write drivers (see Nvidia GSP). Anyone can write Photoshop (provided reasonable resources). The problem is going to be proprietary file format and compatibility with the ecosystem. It's same with hardware, except several orders of magnitude worse. |
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| ▲ | cedws 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I don't know much about Linux internals - how difficult would it be to reimplement KVM? I'm guessing a big undertaking. |
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| ▲ | nikanj 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Just a hobby, won’t be big and professional like Linux? |
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| ▲ | meisel 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Really neat. Do you have any specific long term goals for it? Eg, provide an OS distro (using Linux drivers?) to provide memory safety for security-critical contexts? Also, are there any opportunities to make this kernel significantly faster than Linux’s? |
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| ▲ | hexagonal-sun 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Eventually, It'd be amazing to use Moss as my daily driver OS. That means targeting the specific hardware that I have, but in doing so, I hope to build up enough of the abstractions to allow easier porting of hardware. A more concrete mid-term goal is for it to be 'self-hosting'. By that I mean you could edit the code, download dependencies and compile the kernel from within Moss. |
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| ▲ | maxloh 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| In what extent is this compatible with Linux? Could I swap Ubuntu's or Android's kernel with this, while keeping those OSes bootable? |
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| ▲ | tuyiown 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | While it's very legitimate question, the answer is between the lines in the README, and it mostly means that there is a user space binary compatibility for everything that is implemented. It might seem obscure, but syscalls to get access to kernel requires a tight integration on compilation and linking. So this is their approach and this is where the compatibility really means something : since you can cross compile on another machine, they don't need the full toolchain right away. Just compile your code on a linux machine, and run it there. You're at the mercy of all missing kernel API implementations, but it looks like a very good strategy if you aim is to code a kernel, as you only have to focus on actual syscalls implementation without getting distracted by toolchain. | |
| ▲ | HackerThemAll 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | At this stage you'd need to contribute to it, not treat it as a finished product. |
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