I would replace your number 5 with "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" or "MacBeth" or "Calvin & Hobbes" or maybe even Natsume's "I am a Cat." Also fun fictional books with impressive protagonists.

Other than that, your first four points are wonderful.

▲ Y_Y 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Strongly agreed. Reading the actual bible is (mostly) boring as sin. There are a couple of gems in there that you can just take on their own though.

My personal favourite is Ecclesiastes which, apart from a couple of lines of slop added by a later author, has little to do with Abrahamic religion and is more just a little nugget of proto-existentialism.

   “Meaningless! Meaningless!”
      says the Teacher.
  “Utterly meaningless!
      Everything is meaningless.”

  What do people gain from all their labors
      at which they toil under the sun?
 
  Generations come and generations go,
      but the earth remains forever.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ecclesiastes%20...

	▲	williamcotton an hour ago \| parent \| next [-]
		`The more the words, the less the meaning, and how does that profit anyone? Ecclesiastes 6:11 --- “We, and I personally, believe very strongly that more information is better, even if it’s wrong. Let’s start from the premise that more information, more empowerment, is fundamentally the correct answer.” Eric Schmidt`
	▲	obruchez 3 hours ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		I read Ecclesiastes back in 2019. It's probably one of the more interesting books in the Bible. I wasn't particularly impressed with it, but it's a short read, so I still think it's a good suggestion, especially if you're atheist or agnostic.

▲ grodes 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Jesus is not fictional.

I get why people say that. Most of us grew up hearing casual claims that he never existed, or that the whole thing is a myth. But the evidence for his historical existence is solid. You do not need to believe in the miracles to accept that a real person named Jesus lived, taught, and was executed.

And if the story were invented, the mind that created those teachings would be just as remarkable as the man himself. Reading the accounts directly is what convinced me. I started from a skeptical place and changed my mind only after going through it.

PS: If you think my first four points make sense, it's possible the fifth one does too, maybe it just hasn't clicked for you yet.

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dspillett 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Jesus is not fictional.

There is apparently evidence that there was a Jesus¹ who preached and was crucified for causing a pain for those in power. But the version of Jesus in the bible is likely no more real than the Abraham in Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter (2012).

--------

[1] or someone going by another name which became Jesus over time, many names in the new testament are suspiciously unlike those likely to be found in the middle east in the first century CE.

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ricardobeat an hour ago | parent [-]

Not at all. The bible is famously allegorical which is known by everyone who practices catholicism, but the historical evidence and written records are quite clear - there was this incredibly charismatic guy who grew a following, helped the poor and got crucified.

	▲	creata an hour ago \| parent [-]
		> there was this incredibly charismatic guy who grew a following, helped the poor and got crucified. What historical evidence supports that Jesus helped the poor?

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eisbaw 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It is great that Jesus works for you, but you have to separate real-Jesus versus storybook-Jesus. No doubt he lived, but written stories can be elaborated on.

For all I know, Jesus could have been the world's first great magician. The world has seen quite a few people in it, some quite remarkable - for which stories have been written. No deity or supernatural abilities need to apply.

Words in a book/internet aren't always the truth.

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grodes 2 hours ago | parent [-]

You are right, faith is always needed.

Don't fall into a fallacy: just because "no deity or supernatural abilities need to apply" doesn't mean that a deity or supernatural abilities haven't applied.

The only honest positions we can take are: I believe / I don't believe.

	▲	hamasho an hour ago \| parent [-]
		I'm happy if you find calm in your faith, but one of the biggest cause leading our insanity is the idea "both side can be the truth and it's all about what you believe" when in most cases one is much more likely than the other. This causes alternative facts and idiocracy. There are a lot of "facts" online so we can "choose" the most comfortable one, and "my ignorance is as good as your knowledge".

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kakacik 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Jesus is not fictional.

Strong claims require strong evidence. Some book written by many, some properly delusional or crazy folks, claiming various outlandish things not physically possible these days (staying away from word "lies" but not too far, basic physics laws worked the same 2000 years ago).

Or preaching behavior absolutely unacceptable these days (Old testament would force you to be murderer pretty quickly nowadays, and I haven't heard a single Christian rejecting all of it... they can't so just they ignore most of it like it doesn't exist). All this decades and centuries after claimed facts, that ain't a proof in any sense. You can believe it for sure, I can choose to believe in Great Spaghetti Monster and its holy teachings and its about the same.

There are no contemporary roman records from that time, earliest (with both eyes squinted and a lot of wishful thinking) is more than century afterwards. Quite an impressive record for claimed son of God, or God himself or whatever it should be.

I've been reading a bit about various sects recently, today it was Jim Jones and his escapades. With enough steps back, it all looks exactly the same, including behavior of believers. To the very last bolt. Tells you a lot about humans and how they internally try to handle tough times, but not much else.

So please, lets have a more rational discussion rather than level our grandparents may consider passable but many of us don't.

	▲	GaryBluto 2 hours ago \| parent \| next [-]
		> Strong claims require strong evidence. Believing a Jewish man formed his own religious sect and was crucified isn't exactly a strong claim. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus#Existence...
	▲	spectralista an hour ago \| parent \| prev \| next [-]
		Christopher Hitchens gives the best argument for a historical Jesus in this clip https://youtu.be/vMo5R5pLPBE?t=168
	▲	ricardobeat an hour ago \| parent \| prev \| next [-]
		The USA brand of 'christianity' is very un-christian-like. In strong catholic countries like most of South America, the old testament is all but entirely rejected, and even the new one treated as mostly fables - they teach you some kind of lesson, not history.
	▲	krapp an hour ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		As far as I know the scholarly consensus is that there was a "Jesus" who founded the Christian cult. The only claim being made is that such a person likely existed, not that they were the son of God or actually performed miracles. Just that he wasn't entirely made up. He wouldn't have even been the only "messiah" for whom such claims were made, and the teachings ascribed to him weren't even unique. Here is a video from the Esoterica Youtube channel which tries to present a historical view of Jesus grounded in contemporary Judaism: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82vxOBbYSzk