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sph 7 hours ago

What’s the cost of making the internet more centralised because of sheer laziness?

cortesoft 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Do you think a world where all the commercial websites are centralized, but personal blogs are not, is that different than a world where blogs are also centralized?

What is the benefit to having small blogs be decentralized?

wat10000 6 hours ago | parent [-]

If everything is centralized then nobody can discuss topics that have been decided to be off limits by the moderation teams at a few large companies.

huijzer 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> If everything is centralized then nobody can discuss topics that have been decided to be off limits by the moderation teams at a few large companies.

Nice, you root caused it too. I couldn't agree more.

cortesoft 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

If cloudflare decides they don’t want to be your CDN, you could just move off of cloudflare, and be in the same situation you would be in if you never used them. You aren’t locked in.

grayhatter 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> You aren’t locked in.

Did you consider and discard the eventuality that all the other ISP have gone out of business because everyone just uses cloudflare?

Invasive species destroy ecosystems.

cortesoft 5 hours ago | parent [-]

I am suggesting you host your website on your own server somewhere, and then you put it behind cloudflare. You still have your own host, just the same as you would without cloudflare. You are still providing your non-cloudflare host with the same revenue you would if you didn't use cloudflare, so I am not sure how that would hurt the ecosystem.

The 'Invasive species destroy ecosystems' quote sounds good, but what exactly does it mean in this case? What is the species, and what is it invading?

grayhatter 3 hours ago | parent [-]

> I am suggesting you host your website on your own server somewhere, and then you put it behind cloudflare

I'd rather advocate for a solution that doesn't induce centralization. Because that still does. It's a weird suggestion to pay twice. I'm assuming in your hypothetical, cloudflare not only doesn't ever go down, but also absorbs only malicious traffic, and not any organic? Why should cloudflare do that and not my primary host? I'll assume I have XX to spend on hosting, you don't see how if I have to also allocate some of that to cloudflare, in addition to the real host, how that might limit what the real host can charge? If the real host can't charge enough to fund R&D on services like basic DDoS or other traffic shaping, wouldnt that mean I've then become dependent on cloudflare? And now hey cloudflare has other service, and I don't like the extra overhead of paying multiple services... I'll just move everything to cloudflare because they're bigger and do both... and now the small host is gone.

sigh

> The 'Invasive species destroy ecosystems' quote sounds good, but what exactly does it mean in this case? What is the species, and what is it invading?

I'm comparing cloudflare to any species that enters an existing system that has developed a natural ecological balance that includes diversity. Which then proceeds to grow for the sake of growth, consuming resourcs at an unsustainable rate; destroying the diversity that previously existed.

Destroying that diversity is bad because that diversity is what gives the system as a whole resistance to catastrophic events.

Like huge parts of the Internet going down because someone wanted to ship their project before the holidays, in time for their perf review.

The argument being: we should view cloudflare's growth, and consumption and takeover of the resources of the Internet as a whole, similar to the way we view other invasive species. It destroys the good parts of an existing system in a way that is almost impossible to recover from. Resulting in a much more fragile system. One than's now vulnerable to single events that take down "everything". A healthy system would be able to absorb such an event without destabilizing the whole thing.

The invasive species is cloudflare, and it's consuming and replacing large existing sections of the Internet; which gains much of it's strength and resilience from it being distributed amongst it's peers.

hrimfaxi 3 hours ago | parent [-]

> I'd rather advocate for a solution that doesn't induce centralization. Because that still does. It's a weird suggestion to pay twice. I'm assuming in your hypothetical, cloudflare not only doesn't ever go down, but also absorbs only malicious traffic, and not any organic? Why should cloudflare do that and not my primary host? I'll assume I have XX to spend on hosting, you don't see how if I have to also allocate some of that to cloudflare, in addition to the real host

You don't have to pay cloudflare anything at all for them to act as CDN and provide basic DDoS protections.

grayhatter 3 hours ago | parent [-]

> You don't have to pay cloudflare anything at all for them to act as CDN and provide basic DDoS protections.

I object to centralization and consolidation of power, how is this not both?

I'll duplicate my follow up question, from a sister thread.

If I actually start using the DDoS protection or other services... will cloudflare cut me off unless I pay? Will that charge be exorbitant? Does that behavior feel like extortion? Have they done that before?

wat10000 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

If you can move off of CDNs then you're not in a world where all personal blogs are centralized.

stuffn 3 hours ago | parent [-]

And thus, the lemmings walk straight off the cliff.

There seems to be two views. One forward looking and one not. The forward looking view appropriate recognizes the threat of centralization. Centralization crushes small businesses (and small blogs), leads to censorship (see youtube et al.), and destroys competition. No one on the planet can compete with cloudflare pound for pound and thus if they decide your site is bad based on $CURRENT_ZEITGEIST you're SOL. You may as well not exist. We already have plenty of evidence from 2016 to now of this occurring via a large conspiracy between big tech and government.

The non-forward looking view naively closes their eyes and says "well we aren't there yet so what does it matter". This is how rights erode. It is a shame people with this view are allowed to vote and breed.

3 hours ago | parent | next [-]
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wat10000 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I'm amazed at the responses saying something like, "It's great because when you go down, you can point to the BBC and say, it's not our fault, everyone is down." That should be the clue that this gives them enormous power. It's also bad for overall resilience. Better that businesses go offline more often in an uncorrelated manner, than go offline less frequently but simultaneously. I guess it's great if all you care about is not catching blame.

hrimfaxi 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Do you think most people who want to start a blog are thinking about the centralization of internet services?

sph an hour ago | parent [-]

Do I think people who want to do X should have some modicum of morals? Yes I do, but I can't fully blame them when ethics is not taught in most schools, least of all computer sciences.

First, let's stop perpetuating this destructive meme that running nginx on a VPS is rocket science, and fraught with peril; at least not on a forum of so-called hackers.

jajuuka 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The famously decentralized internet. AWS, Azure, CloudFlare, or sea cables getting damaged never impact service. Right? /s