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shevy-java 7 hours ago

It is 4.0.0 largely because matz created ruby 30 years ago.

matz is no longer the youngest - although he does look young, he is already 60 years old. He also said he has a retirement plan, e. g. avoiding a situation such as when Guido quit (or semi-quit) from Python (due to fatigue/frustration; Guido is not 100% retired but he is also not necessarily the solo-design-dev either, so it is a bit of a semi-retirement). So we won't know how long matz will be the lead designer of ruby - and who will succeed. Which may be reason to worry depending on who it would be. Imagine DHH takes over - man, there would be an insta-exodus of people ...

So while this release does not have a lot of content as such, one thing that is quite big, even though right now it is not, is Ruby::Box. There are many who don't understand it. The thing is ... I understand the use cases for it. I was not involved in any way with regards to its design, mind you - that was mostly a japanese-group in design. But there are objective use cases for it.

Many years ago I recall on IRC (we oldschool people used IRC back in the pre-discord stone age) some C# hacker said he won't use ruby because there are no strong namespaces, that is, someone else can just overwrite things and then nothing works. Although I think he was a drama guy, and any "danger" to be minimal, objectively he has had a point, simply because ruby had no strong concept of isolation here. Lateron there came refinements. Now refinements are strange, because while I think the use case makes sense, the syntax is strange. Syntax is one huge reason why I do not use refinements; but also because I try to avoid putting my own modifications all over the place, largely because I'd have to distribute that too, and also because modifying core classes, while that has a use, should not be done excessively, IMO.

Ruby::Box kind of builds on that and makes the refinement use case more generic (eventually; I am aware that right now this is not the case but you need a transition stage. Syntax-wise Ruby::Box is also weird, so hopefully the syntax gets easier too, but I instantly understood the use cases. Many people don't, in particular about 95% who demanded a name change away from Namespace to something else, really don't understand the underlying use case.)

Now - making isolated per-project changes is not the only use case. For instance, ractors could be simplified if you know that there are separate ruby processes; ruby threads probably too. These I consider secondary benefits though (and yes, that may be far in the future, who knows; when python removed its GIL though, it put ruby under pressure, aka shape-up-or-go-extinct mode).

One thing I would complain a lot is that on rubygems.org, before RubyCentral went shopify-controlled-only, that people would occupy namespaces. Such as Configuration. I wanted to have a project called Configuration so I can do Configuration.new or Configuration.parse_this_file(). This is possible of course, but when it comes to distributing code, who owns that toplevel namespace? Normally the one who occupied the name first on rubygems.org, sort of. Via Ruby::Box, it should be possible to have ownerships. This could be strong or weak; weak as a hint, aka "psych is owned by ruby core ownershiper but it can be modified", or strong aka making it immutable. Both have use cases. Could also be both. Having this more organized would be really convenient for developers. I would not have to worry whether anyone else uses that "namespace". And of course we need a way to query this state from within ruby code too aka, say immutable:

"If psych is owned by ruby-core, continue to use it."

psych (for yaml) is not a good example here but you can think of any other namespace where you may only want to consider some gems/projects but not others. (Again, the use case may differ between strong and weak ownership, but the thing is that this is an improvement over the prior status quo.)

There are several additional use cases to be had but I'll stop here. What I find strange is that many people who complain, don't refer to the old issues and discussions. We had discussions before refinements were added. About 80% of the people involved, DON'T EVEN KNOW THESE OLD DISCUSSIONS. Either they have dementia, or these are young ruby users who never were active in the old days. It's very strange.

I am not saying all is perfect about Ruby::Box, in particular syntax-wise I'd like improvements, but many people don't seem to understand the use cases, and this is very very strange.

ecshafer 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

If Matz ever retires, I hope it is still maintained by Japanese devs, to keep the insanity that is western politics out of it.

bdcravens 2 hours ago | parent [-]

While there's certainly drama of technical and personality in many projects, are there any languages that we can see evidence of "insanity of western politics" being present?

ecshafer an hour ago | parent [-]

There are literally people in this thread saying they wouldnt use ruby if dhh became lead because of his politics. Ruby in the west it seems to come up a lot. Mozilla/JS it came up with brendan eich being fired for his politics. Mostly its against anyone that steps out of line with far left san fransisco politics.

culi 21 minutes ago | parent [-]

i don't think it's unreasonable to not want someone who has a habit of ranting about "Pakistani rape gangs" on twitter to represent/head a community project. Especially one that has contributions from people all over the world. Even ethics aside it's just bad business

werdnapk 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Ruby dev since 2000 and looks like refinements have been available since 2.4. I just used them for the first time this year. Definitely not a go to feature for me, but it was nice the feature was available.

davidw 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

As a practical matter, I don't think DHH is a Ruby internals geek, particularly, and seems to have other hobbies as well, so I don't think that's likely to even be a thing the community faces.

dudeinjapan 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Ruby::Box in its current form seems to radically miss the mark. Any namespace paradigm only has utility if it is widely adopted across the ecosystem. Javascript did this with ES modules 10 years ago--it IS possible--but it takes a ton of buy-in and effort from the community to achieve it.

I just don't think Ruby has this "burning need" to have namespaces/modules/erm... "boxes". So we're likely to end up with sporadic usage of Boxes leading to inconsistent behavior.

thebigkick 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Curious, why would DHH trigger a mass exodus?

culi 11 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

A mantra in the Ruby community is "Matz is nice so we are nice". By contrast, DHH is the type of person who would use the hey.com domain[0] to post rants about London being only 1/3rd white, "Pakistani rape gangs", etc. His racist tirades used to be limited to his twitter, but he's shown he's very willing to use business resources to push his racist politics. More discussions here:

- https://lobste.rs/s/fpri94/dhh_problem_2014

- https://old.reddit.com/r/ruby/comments/1no4zu2

[0] https://world.hey.com/dhh/as-i-remember-london-e7d38e64

dymk 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Ignoring DHH's politics (which are enough to make me look for alternatives), he makes breaking technical decisions to tooling with little to no community involvement. E.g., https://github.com/hotwired/turbo/pull/971

He makes it difficult to trust that, were he in charge of Ruby, he wouldn't just take the reigns and stubbornly do whatever he thinks is technically right for "aesthetics" at the cost of all else.

brigandish 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The Ruby "community" has long been dogged by politics and culture war stuff. This comment[0] on a flagged submission has lots of links for getting up to speed.

Maybe they're right, there would be an exodus, I just wonder if other languages' communities will want the trouble. The Japanese Rubyists don't care for a second, a nice by-product of Japanese insularity. Ruby would continue in Japan just fine without westerners, don't worry.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45379652

throwaway48921 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'd much prefer Jeremy Evans[0] taking over rather than DHH. Jeremy is a Ruby core committer (and much more pleasant person), unlike DHH.

[0] - https://github.com/jeremyevans

brigandish 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Anyone who won't discriminate against others for their politics would be an improvement, because that's not what's been happening in many core projects.

throwaway48921 7 hours ago | parent [-]

I am not suggesting Jeremy Evans simply because of politics. I think he's very underrated in the community and the work he does is incredible. Having interacted with him a number of times, he's been really helpful and pleasant. I think those qualities make him a good candidate.

Fun fact: Jeremy won the Ruby Prize 2019: https://rubyprize.jp/19_iv-nominees01-2-en.html

brigandish 7 hours ago | parent [-]

I agree. He has scolded me before though, for submitting code he didn't like the look of. Felt a tad harsh at the time, that's the kind of thing that puts people off contributing. However, he's a better programmer than me so if he didn't like it he's probably right. Could improve his bedside manner a bit though. I'm sure others have said that about me too, perhaps I'm a hypocrite.

Regardless of that, anyone who doesn't discriminate against others for their politics would be an improvement.

Edit: a improvement on the other westerners in the core team who might be touted as the next benevolent dictator, as I doubt that benevolence would maintain.

jeltz 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

In every interaction with Evans I have had he has been super nice and welcoming to contributors. Maybe he had a bad day.

throwaway48921 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> I agree. He has scolded me before though, for submitting code he didn't like the look of.

Heh, do you have a link to the PR?

throwaway48921 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Curious why this suggestion was downvoted to hell.

igravious 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I've no idea Jeremy ;-)

jeltz 2 hours ago | parent [-]

That is clearly not Jeremy Evans. Maybe a funny joke if that innocent commenter had not been downvoted to hell.

jeltz 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

No idea, Jeremy Evans is a really good coder and a nice person. Also a much more influential voice in the Ruby community than DHH.

4 hours ago | parent [-]
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flykespice 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Would you keep using a programming language leaded by a racist? I wouldn't

npteljes 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

If programming is just my hobby, then maybe. But would you, for example, quit your current job and look for another, just to change the programming language? I know I'm not that sort of person.

chipotle_coyote 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I think it's not as much "if this guy becomes the lead I'm immediately quitting my Ruby job to return to PHP" as much as "if this guy becomes the lead I'm probably going to return to PHP for my next job."

npteljes 6 hours ago | parent [-]

I have my doubts, even for this softer version. These are things where one might feel very strongly in a moment, or even for a longer time, but facing a real life decision, there are so many other factors.

Of course we will never know the outcome of this, it's just my two cents.

yes1would 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yup, I quit Shopify because the CEO and COO are both Nazis, and coincidentally Tobi is good friends with DHH.

6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
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jeltz 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Ruby is not and has never been led by DHH.

dudeinjapan 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

This is exactly why we shouldn't use KKScript either. Plus it has 1-based array indexes.