| ▲ | jghn 14 hours ago |
| It'd matter more if polygraphs weren't completely bogus pseudoscience in the first place |
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| ▲ | trehalose 13 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Sure, but don't you find it a little curious that these tests are being waived so selectively? If the FBI believes polygraphs serve some purpose, why would it choose to waive them? |
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| ▲ | jghn 13 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Does it bother me? Yes. But the real solution is to not have polygraphs at all, not to get upset that a few people didn't get them. | | |
| ▲ | majormajor 13 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Let's ignore that they're crap. Person A believes they work. Person A says "we shouldn't use this on Persons B, C, D". Pretty major implications about the integrity and suitability of Persons B, C, and D, and about how Person A suspects they have stuff to hide. (In some ways this is a good reason to keep them around. Even if some people know they're crap, the existence and popular mythology causes people to reveal more than they otherwise would through actions like this.) | | |
| ▲ | MBCook 12 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | If they were using dowsing rods instead of polygraphs would you still feel the same way? It’s certainly suspicious. But it’s also a huge problem they use them at all when the private sector was banned from doing so since they’re so unreliable decades ago. | | |
| ▲ | trehalose 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | I'd absolutely feel the same way if we were talking about dowsing rods or a plastic Harry Potter sorting hat or any bullshit we can think of. I don't want our national security to rely on untested or disproven methods to determine whether people are trustworthy. Even so, as you say, that's also a problem (a big one). I'd be quite comfortable if I knew that these polygraph tests were being scrapped entirely because they're nonsense and that the FBI is reworking its security procedures to improve all its background checks. As it is, these articles make it sound like they're replacing the polygraph test with nothing, and only for these select few people. I don't like that. It is a human-led interrogation, albeit with a useless (at best) machine. I want to know what's so trustworthy about these people that the FBI doesn't even want to get to know them before giving them jobs high up? |
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| ▲ | msandford 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I think that's one very reasonable interpretation. The other is "I really want these people w to come work here and they don't want to do the polygraph because it's a huge pain so I as the manager I'm going to waive it to reduce their objections to being hired". That's something that companies do all the time, they pay people "out of band" or give them extra benefits or accelerate their vacation accrual or vesting, or one of hundreds of other things. I agree it looks bad for sure but it isn't necessarily sinister. | |
| ▲ | jandrewrogers 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | There has always been a contingent of people that do sensitive work for the government because they have important expertise but are either "unclearable" or unwilling to go through the formal clearance process. Limited affordances are sometimes made in these cases at the discretion of senior officials with that authority. For the government it is a practical risk/benefit calculus and they still have the ability to do a substantial background check on their own without a formal process. While it would never be allowed for the average Federal employee it does exist outside of purely political positions. |
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| ▲ | sigmarule 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That solution is to a problem that is not the topic of conversation here. The problem is selective waiving of vetting processes due to political pressure and affiliation. Acting as if the efficacy of the vetting process is a point relevant to this conversation either implies you believe they waived this process for these three due to their ineffectiveness - very much not the belief held my most observers, why just 3 then - otherwise it’s a pure strawman argument. Neither option is good. | | |
| ▲ | breve 11 hours ago | parent [-] | | > The problem is selective waiving of vetting processes due to political pressure and affiliation. It's all part of the same problem. When you have agencies lead by people so incompetent that they believe polygraphs work then you will inevitably get more bad decision making. |
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| ▲ | exasperaited 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | You really mean it's not worth getting upset that employees are put through stupid and sometimes even quite invasive or degrading questioning in a humiliating and fear-driven process that bosses don't? | | |
| ▲ | jghn 13 hours ago | parent [-] | | I'd prefer they just get rid of them altogether. They're stupid. | | |
| ▲ | tialaramex 13 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Right, when people sow chaos sometimes the random chaos includes a few nuggets that are good. "No more polygraphs" isn't quite "Stop making pennies" but it's also not "We're reintroducing slavery" is it? | |
| ▲ | exasperaited 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yes, but do you think that will be the outcome? Uniform scrutiny and uniform rules that benefit everyone equally and don't advantage the loyal coterie is not how situations like this go, and it's not how this one is going so far, is it? Exceptions to rules for insiders and the loyal is how it is actually going. "For my friends, everything. For my enemies, the law" — Óscar Benavides. |
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| ▲ | tptacek 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Nope. The tests don't do anything. It sucks that we require them for anybody but I have bigger fairness fish to fry with this administration. | |
| ▲ | bogomipblips 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] |
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| ▲ | dragonwriter 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I think distinction needs to be made between: * Polygraph “tests” presented as objective, independent evidence for the truth or falsehood of statements, and * Polygraph used as an additional channel (similar to but on top of assessment of body language, voice tone, etc.) by an interviewer to determine how to guide an interview to elicit information from a subject, including information that they might prefer to conceal. |
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| ▲ | gadsnprch 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Many say the same about remote viewing but results matter. |
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| ▲ | general1465 12 hours ago | parent [-] | | If remote viewing would be a thing, spy networks would not be necessary and encryption would not matter. | | |
| ▲ | parineum 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | If people believed remote viewing was real, law enforcement would say they had a psychic witness their suspect commit the crime. |
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| ▲ | idiotsecant 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| The reason it's interesting is that the subjects of these fake tests thought they might work and thus they skipped them. It's irrelevant whether they do anything. It's more important why they were skipped. What questions would the interviewer ask that they didn't want to risk answering? |
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| ▲ | thaumasiotes 12 hours ago | parent [-] | | > The reason it's interesting is that the subjects of these fake tests thought they might work and thus they skipped them. This is just something you made up. Here's an alternative idea: You are deciding whether to take a test. The test's results are 100% subjective. Anything you say during the test can be interpreted as a negative statement about yourself, and this determination will be made by the examiner. Is taking this test a good idea? Why or why not? |
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