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| ▲ | toomuchtodo a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Margin of victory was ~2M votes, about how many voters 55+ die in a year. Hopefully enough voters have aged out or learned their lesson next time around (considering election results we've seen in the last week or so [1]). You're never going to convince unsavory voters to vote with empathy, the subject brain structure does not support it (anterior insular cortex, primarily), you can only hope they're aging out of the electorate at a reasonable pace (and not being replaced). "A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it." (Planck's Principle [2] applied to voting) [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45818505 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck%27s_principle | | |
| ▲ | ryandrake a day ago | parent | next [-] | | It's comforting that maybe this mentality is correcting itself one funeral at a time. But what really makes me sad is how this mentality so quickly swept into the country to begin with. 30 years ago, the vast majority of Americans would be horrified at the thought of people being assaulted on the street in broad daylight, black-bagged, kidnapped and disappeared forever by masked, non-identifying thugs. Fast forward 30 years, and (chances are) my neighbors want this and are absolutely giddy at the thought of it happening here! Regardless of who votes for what, how did my country turn into this? | | |
| ▲ | imiric a day ago | parent | next [-] | | > how did my country turn into this? There are two components to this answer. First, your country has been divided since at least the mid-19th century. Every war has a winning and losing side, but the losers don't simply vanish. Their mentality persists throughout generations, even if it remains in the background, and is ignored by the other side. Secondly, all this technology you've built and allowed the world to use can and has been exploited by your enemies to your own detriment. The same systems you've built that allow manipulating people into buying things are also ideal channels for spreading propaganda and disinformation. Information warfare is not new, but modern technology has made it more effective than ever at manipulating groups of people, sowing dissent, and generally causing chaos and confusion within a nation. So, putting those two together, it's not difficult to see how acts of information warfare could be used to fuel the deeply rooted social divide, directly causing or strongly contributing to the internal sociopolitical instability you've been experiencing for the past decade. Meanwhile, your enemies can sit back and enjoy the show of an imploding nation. They know that you're untouchable via traditional warfare, which is why these tactics are so perfect. They do require a long time to come into effect, but they're highly effective, very cheap to deploy, and the best part is that they're completely untraceable to the attacker. It's still debatable whether there was Russian interference in your elections, and how effective it actually was, even though there is evidence for it. It's still debatable whether Chinese-operated social media platforms are a national security threat or not. Were J6 protesters rioters or patriots? And so on about every controversial sociopolitical topic. This confusion is exactly the intended effect. Your regular checks and balances, your laws, ideals and values, make no difference if your communication channels are corrupted. I don't see how you can get out of this mess, and I expect things will get much worse before they get better. Not just for you, but globally. These same tactics are also deployed in other countries, by the US as well. Though, ironically, countries that are cut off from the global internet have an upper hand in this conflict. | |
| ▲ | toomuchtodo a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Tribalism, identity politics, low education and lack of respect for education and intellectualism, and late stage capitalism. A cautionary tale, for sure. People are angry, rightfully so, but at the wrong people. Thank Reagan (economics) and Gingrich (politics) for a lot of this we’re facing. Deepfriedchokes is right; we need stronger, more robust systems to protect humans from other humans, because we cannot trust the human (broadly speaking). | | |
| ▲ | msandford a day ago | parent [-] | | The Biden admin (no idea if Biden himself was involved) literally sued Texas to stop Texas from enforcing border law. This same admin also essentially redefined "asylum" to be economic asylum rather than "I'm afraid that if I go back to my country I'll be killed" which is how people typically thought of asylum. You can absolutely think that what's happening now is an overreaction, un-American, gross, illegal, and morally wrong. But if you're unwilling to try and understand how it's possible that over half the country voted for someone who would enact policies that lead to what we're seeing now, you're simply not paying attention. If you just want to see the people who voted for this as "the enemy" and "evil" you're basically doing the same tribal "othering" that's lead to these outcomes you don't like. Is that ugly and uncomfortable? Yes, absolutely. Will things get better by ignoring it? Absolutely not. | | |
| ▲ | whoknowsidont a day ago | parent | next [-] | | >If you just want to see the people who voted for this as "the enemy" and "evil" you're basically doing the same tribal "othering" that's lead to these outcomes you don't like. "If you point out problems, you yourself are actually the problem. I am very rational." Incredible logic. | | |
| ▲ | msandford 20 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Okay so what's the solution then that doesn't involve having to disappear the half of the country that you don't agree with? I'm super open to better solutions. I just rarely hear any other than magical thinking. "All these evil shitbags will get reeducated and agree with me now" if it's not that, what is it? | | |
| ▲ | tremon 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | the solution that doesn't involve having to disappear the half of the country that you don't agree with? You can't form a country with people who want half the country to disappear. There's only three possible outcomes here: - civil war - secession - remove all people that want other people to disappear | | |
| ▲ | msandford 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | I think you're missing the fourth option which is rediscovering civility, agreeing to disagree, etc. Are the Republicans doing that right now? Probably not. Are the Democrats doing that right now? Also probably not. | | |
| ▲ | whoknowsidont 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | "Are the people doing the humane and civil things the same as the people actively supporting and promoting evil and hate? I guess so!" If you're not being disingenuous you're being incredibly infantile. Take a big, long think. >agreeing to disagree, Disagreement about what exactly? Please, spell it out. |
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| ▲ | drdaeman 21 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It is incredible, because a lot of people dismiss it so eagerly. Let me try to phrase it differently: ostracization rarely yields positive results, and is more likely to lead to opposite of desired course of action through future radicalization. In other words, saying that bad people are bad is - as paradoxical as it might be - less likely to making anyone better than make bad people even worse. | | |
| ▲ | whoknowsidont 21 hours ago | parent [-] | | >It is incredible, because a lot of people dismiss it so eagerly. Because it's wishful thinking, and it only serves one purpose and only benefits one group. You can't say it wasn't tried. Far from it. It didn't work out. Plain and simple. | | |
| ▲ | drdaeman 18 hours ago | parent [-] | | Sorry, I absolutely appreciate the explanation instead of a snark remark, but I don’t understand. What was tired or supposed to work out? Not ostracizing is not exactly a solution (grandparent comment haven’t made suggestions as to what to do instead), and alternatives aren’t one possible approach but a giant spectrum of possible reactions. Instead of saying “you’re a bad person” a lot of different things can be done, right? Or do you possibly mean that we collectively tried everything and nothing ever worked out, so we’re fairly positive this is wishful thinking? Or am I misunderstanding something, or falling to some fallacy here? |
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| ▲ | ryandrake a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > But if you're unwilling to try and understand how it's possible that over half the country voted for someone who would enact policies that lead to what we're seeing now, you're simply not paying attention. Anyone who's read about the history of Germany in the 1920s and 1930s should understand how it's possible. We can still feel disappointed and helpless that the same mentality is rearing its head again, especially in a country that itself sent people overseas to fight it 100 years ago. Off and on throughout my life as an American, I thought my fellow Americans could be sometimes be described as arrogant, sometimes uninformed, sometimes overconfident, sometimes over-patriotic, sometimes selfish. But never needlessly cruel and cold-blooded like millions are today. This is new and terrible. It's absolutely sickening to walk outside in my neighborhood, look at 10 houses and think maybe 3 or 4 of them are homes to people who are OK with what is happening. | |
| ▲ | nobody9999 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | >But if you're unwilling to try and understand how it's possible that over half the country voted for someone who would enact policies that lead to what we're seeing now, you're simply not paying attention. Actually it was more like 25% of those eligible to vote, not "over half the country." | |
| ▲ | don_neufeld a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Which lawsuit are you referring to? | | |
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| ▲ | a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | deepfriedchokes a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | We shouldn’t need to count on voters dying to avoid outcomes like this. Our institutions are broken if they can’t protect the public from a mentally ill public official on a power trip. | | |
| ▲ | ryandrake a day ago | parent [-] | | The point is that we are not talking about protecting the public from a few mentally ill public officials. These officials didn't just appear out of the ether, they were voted for by tens of millions of voters who want this. Even if the officials go away, those voters are not. | | |
| ▲ | strken a day ago | parent [-] | | I'm not sure this is the correct perspective on voting. Voters are often passionate about one or two key issues - crime, Israel v Palestine, cost of living, immigration policy, coal towns, Ukraine, military spending, or whatever is most important to them. If they voted for Trump it doesn't mean they agree with him on immigration and crime. They just have to think it's less important than the positions they do agree with. An effective argument to win over those voters isn't "you're evil and should have better opinions," it's "immigration policy is important too and this one is really bad, plus Trump is doing a bad job on your pet issues." | | |
| ▲ | toomuchtodo a day ago | parent [-] | | You’re expecting rationality where it will not be found. The do not care about effective arguments, they are vibes and emotion driven. | | |
| ▲ | strken 17 hours ago | parent [-] | | You can make a vibes- and emotion-based argument that isn't "you are evil." | | |
| ▲ | toomuchtodo 17 hours ago | parent [-] | | I disagree. Can you talk someone out of their religion? Their identity? Their belief system? In most cases, you cannot. Exceptions exist, certainly, but are not the norm in this regard. This could include those who are proudly racist, proudly misogynist, or take joy or satisfaction in the harm or pain of others. Are they evil? I think that distinction is a waste of time to be honest. All that matters is: “can you convince these people to vote differently?” If not, any time or effort you spend on them is wasted, and the evidence is robust a lot of these people will keep voting as they have, regardless of argument made. | | |
| ▲ | strken 11 hours ago | parent [-] | | This isn't true. Swing voters exist. Moderates exist. Single-issue voters exist. Occasional voters exist. These are observable facts about the world. The four groups exist in large enough numbers that they decide elections. Die-hard party loyalists exist, committed non-voters who'll never ever vote exist, but they're fixed quantities and are practically irrelevant. I agree with the statement that what really matters is whether you can convince someone to vote differently - but, yes, of course you can! Trump has run three times and only won twice. Obviously there's something that can convince people not to vote for Donald Trump, because it has already happened. |
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| ▲ | saulpw a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The replacement voters are currently teenagers. They haven't "learned their lesson", they aren't old enough to have experienced politics at all. They were 6 years old when Trump was elected the first time. This is their reality and we can't expect that the electorate gets more sensible because old people rotate out. | | | |
| ▲ | abraxas a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Complete hopium. I remember twenty years ago as we witnessed the second term of W and the talks about the republican party's base dying out and losing their support with it. Yet 21 years later they are going stronger than ever with just mayhem and chaos to show for it. Nothing constructive accomplished in two decades. They either obstructed when out of power or favoured the billionaire class when in power. Yet they rebranded themselves as the "revolutionary" party and suckered enough idiots to vote for them enthusiastically. You are fucked, American friends. And we're all fucked with you and because of you. When you sneeze the rest of the world catches a Covid sized cold so you're taking down the rest of us with you. | |
| ▲ | queenkjuul a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Sadly GenX seems to be getting on board as quickly as the boomers are dying off | | |
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| ▲ | ssl-3 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | We must always vote. Our voter turnout for elections in the US is approximately shit. We must also do other things, too: Voting isn't the end-all, be-all solution to everything. (And that's OK; we can do more than one thing at a time.) But the absolute necessity of actually-voting is a constant, and I'm equipped with a profound amount of intolerance towards any idea that may suggest otherwise. | | |
| ▲ | throwaway173738 a day ago | parent [-] | | Yeah, the people who suggest voting doesn’t matter are either suffering from some nihilistic delusion or they’re spreading a self-serving lie. | | |
| ▲ | atmavatar a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Or, they live in one of the 40-something states where the election margins are large enough that it doesn't matter whether they vote. My state hasn't voted Democrat since 1964. The only two elections with less than a 10-point spread since then were in 1976 (7.5% spread) and 1992 (5% spread due to Perot stealing votes from Bush Sr.). I moved to this state in 1993. | |
| ▲ | gishh a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Hmm. Possibly. I predict that California will “go blue” in the presidential elections for at least the rest of my lifetime. Someone who “votes red” in California can say that their vote doesn’t matter, and a reasonable person would understand why they feel that way. You don’t seem like a reasonable person, or you’re also suffering from some nihilistic delusion, possibly. | | |
| ▲ | ssl-3 a day ago | parent [-] | | The most sure method any of us can individually enact to help to ensure that our favored candidate is not elected is to declare that it doesn't matter, and then just give up and not vote. This method is literally an example of nihilism. | | |
| ▲ | gishh a day ago | parent [-] | | So are you saying that, in this instance, understanding your vote doesn’t matters is delusional, or not? You never addressed that. You latched onto the nihilistic part, which I suppose isn’t surprising. |
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| ▲ | tptacek a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I don't think this framing is very helpful. Whatever you believe about the people who pulled the lever for Trump, which included an unprecedented number of Latino and Black voters, they exist, and they're not persuaded by your disapproval. I think a really big problem we have on my side of the aisle is the belief that there's a celestial referee who will call offsides on the Republicans if we can just find the right argument at the right amplitude. What led into our current circumstances was several years of uncontrolled, chaotic immigration, caused in large part by specific articulable decisions Biden's administration made. People felt like the situation had gotten out of control, and they weren't wrong. Every day I'd commute into my office and pass multiple corners and Ike off-ramps(!) staffed by a woman and several of her tiny children, out in the cold, trying to sell bottles of water. My reaction to that wasn't "deport them". I'm a liberal Democrat. But we're kidding ourselves if we think a natural reaction to that situation was "this is fine". The election was fully determined by inflation. Biden made a reasonable (though incorrect) bet that full employment was more important than price stability. It was not: people fucking hate inflation. By a large factor inflation was the most important issue in the 2024 election. But the second-most important issue was immigration (like it has been throughout Europe over the past 10 years) and then after that the issues sharply trail off in importance. | | |
| ▲ | mmooss 17 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The conservative message machine is determinative, and they would find something to effectively raise a storm about: immigration, inflation, etc. If Biden cut inflation, they would have demonized him regarding employment. Or just make something up - they can say anything at this point, and the Dems and others have made themselves helpless. They will always find something - Biden and Dems were being called pedophiles in 2000, the election was stolen, etc. Remember that the GOP stopped immigration reform in Congress for many years, including killing the agreed-upon bipartisan immigration reform bill at Trump's behest during the election. If your theory is correct, that would have disqualified the GOP among those voters. | | |
| ▲ | inemesitaffia 14 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | >bipartisan immigration reform The bill that wasn't required for deportation? | |
| ▲ | cloverich 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I don't think that's true. It was easy to call in Trumps first loss, i remember telling my dad: Economy goes bad, he'll be right back. Immigration may have mattered enough, and likewise Bidens cognitive decline. Lastly people didn't like Kamala in the primary, and they dont like candidates forced on them. That was many things stacked against a dem victory, and it was still close. The dems main ongoing weakness as an extreme generalization, is choosing marginal hills to die on, and using hyperbole for everything. | | |
| ▲ | ryandrake 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | The dems' huge screwup was abandoning the working and middle classes, instead choosing to be "The Other Party For Billionaires, But With Different Identity Politics". |
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| ▲ | jonway a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Could you please qualify both: the several years of chaotic annd uncontrolled immigration as well as Biden betting on employment vs inflation with the policies that you are referencing? For example, while I’m aware that the Biden admin ended title 42, it had only been policy for a few years, ending this policy simply removes us to the Obama era. Although I certainly don’t intend to strawman what you are saying, Obama immigration certainly wasn’t chaotic and uncontrolled. These statements don’t comport with my reading of the facts, as well as inflation, since I understand this to be a global phenomenon. I am genuinely interested | |
| ▲ | keeda 20 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > The election was fully determined by inflation. Biden made a reasonable (though incorrect) bet that full employment was more important than price stability. There is credible theory (shared by a very balanced labor economist I follow) that the immigration crisis helped tame the inflation crisis, besides boosting the economy enough for a soft landing: https://fortune.com/2024/04/12/immigration-inflation-economy... Also some studies for and against this theory: - https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/WP/Issues/2025/01/10/Imm... (Finds inflation lowered.) - https://www.dallasfed.org/research/economics/2025/0708 (No effect on inflation, but yes on GPD growth.) Now, I'm not saying this was always Biden's plan, but the economics are not as straightforward as "employments vs inflation." | | |
| ▲ | tptacek 20 hours ago | parent [-] | | Right, so, I'm not making a normative claim about the right about of immigration. I don't know if I'd go so far as to call myself an "open borders" person, but I'm very pro-immigration. Pro-immigration in the sense of believing we benefit from the mix of new Americans we get over our southern border, not in the weird doublespeak sense of appreciating skilled immigration from Europe. But from 2021-2023, we experienced a destabilizing sudden amount of immigration. We'd had immigrant-friendly policy during Obama, but I don't recall many dozens of Venezuelan refugees on the doorstep of our Village Hall. Obviously, that happened in large part because southern governors bussed people (often without their informed consent) to northern states. But so what? All that says is that we were experiencing something the southern states had been experiencing all along. My big point here is just: it's not enough to say how strongly you feel about immigration in 2021-2024. Enough people hated it that it motivated a materially important bloc of voters. I disagree with those voters. But I also disagree with people upset about inflation, and I feel like we generally understand that those of us on my side of the employment/inflation question were just, you know, wrong. In an electoral sense. | | |
| ▲ | jonway 16 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I was looking at yearly immigration numbers and there is variation in the reporting, which is to be expected, but from what I can see, the census bureau sees a fairly stable number of immigrants (undocumented and otherwise) year over year from 2010-2025, and many sources agree, although CATO intstitute indicates a rather large increase (around %40) in this time period. Can you please share some information as to why you feel the 21-3 numbers to be destabilizing? The reason for increasing Venezuelan immigration is most likely the TPS act from 2019 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuela_TPS_Act_of_2019 ) I am an internet person, but I am aware of your general career and hold some personal respect for you which is why I am asking you fairly directly for your information. Correcting my knowledge is truly my goal and to be very blunt, I am sensitive to the issues of immigration (all types). Personally, my main concern with my country's treatment of this issue lies in the preservation of due process for these people who are seeking to become my countrymen. It doesn't surprise me that they might desire freedom and self-determination, which is something that I readily empathize with. It is important to me to treat people fairly and with dignity in civil society and especially regarding our government, and this includes citizens who are troubled by it. As such I am very interested in realizing an accurate portrayal. | | |
| ▲ | keeda 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | My take (from the sibling comment): the actual immigration problem was not as bad as the perception of it. And possibly that perception was deliberately cultivated across the masses. | | |
| ▲ | tptacek an hour ago | parent [-] | | For several northern metros, the actual immigration problem was distinctively worse than anything that occurred under Obama. If we can't talk about it without lapsing into cope, we don't have much of a chance to persuade the people voting against the perception you're talking about. |
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| ▲ | keeda 18 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | That makes sense, and I agree with your assessments about the voting population's priorities. But maybe the inflation / immigration aspects were much more intertwined than we realized. Maybe (being very generous to him) Biden didn't do a tradeoff between inflation vs employment... maybe the gamble was that increased immigration would boost the economy enough that citizens were not as bothered by the immigrants. In other words, the very valid "its' the economy stupid" theory would imply that if people can comfortable provide for themselves and their families, they'd be less bothered by what they saw as competition for jobs. Unfortunately time was not on their side, and inflation did not drop fast enough. But there might be another angle. An interesting aspect of the economic sentiment and inflation hysteria preceding the election was that data showed that the majority of Americans thought they themselves were doing well, but other Americans were suffering. So the statistical reality was much better than the statistical perception. This is one reason that led to the term "vibecession" -- data belied the sentiments: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibecession Many have credibly attributed this phenomenon to all the algorithm-driven ragebait content on social media, and certain news media channels (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibecession#Media_influence_an...) But maybe we still underestimate the size of that effect: it exploited a critical flaw in an otherwise successful economic strategy -- its reliance on "the outsiders." During the time things were improving but still painful, the perception of these outsiders could be exploited to distract from the improvements happening and foment a backlash. Note it could very well have just happened by accident, but if not... that shows the power of mass perception. The events happening with media platforms leading up to the election may have been (and still are) much more consequential than we realize. |
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| ▲ | WillEngler a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There are some who voted for Trump and do celebrate the cruelty on display in Chicago. But I also think many wanted to deport "the worst of the worst" and that is what they thought they were promised. And per the media many consume, that is what's happening. It's an open question on whether the real extent of the crackdown will break through the echo chamber, but from conversations I've had with people who consume Fox News, I really do think a lot of Trump voters will not be ok with the tactics as they are actually being carried out. For example, I just don't think that earnest religious conservatives I know would defend denying the Eucharist to people in the processing facility (https://blockclubchicago.org/2025/11/02/faith-leaders-again-...) and then banning prayer outside the facility altogether (https://blockclubchicago.org/2025/11/07/feds-tell-faith-lead...). When you lay out this (and the many events in Aphyr's post) to them clearly, they really don't like it. | |
| ▲ | skopje a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Half the US cheers about this. I hope we do not get a world war to stop it. | |
| ▲ | turnsout a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I don't know, man. That is definitely true, but they didn't win by a landslide. And a lot of their edge came from the MAGA Latinx vote. This ICE/CPB action is a total self-own. That Latinx vote is going to disappear, and we've already seen the results in the 2025 elections. I think the right will turn on itself in 2026. We could even end up with three parties, only one of them able to obtain a majority (Democrats). There's a plausible version of the future where the Republican Party goes the way of the Whigs. | | |
| ▲ | ryandrake a day ago | parent | next [-] | | > I think the right will turn on itself in 2026. If they turn on themselves it will not be over immigration. This is the one issue where they are almost all in wild agreement. A massive, overwhelming majority of Republicans agree with these cruel treatment of immigrants[1]. They might disagree on the economy or tariffs or jobs or whatever, but there's no infighting here. They fully back this cruelty. 1: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2025/02/07/what-amer... | | |
| ▲ | techblueberry a day ago | parent | next [-] | | The biggest division right now seems to be support Israel. And if we up the attacks in Venezuela, I do think the America first folks will get louder in their divisions. https://www.thefp.com/p/the-rights-existential-fight-over | |
| ▲ | turnsout a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | No, you're right—I don't think it will be over immigration. I think they'll lose in 2026 and tear themselves apart infighting about who's to blame. | | |
| ▲ | UncleMeat 20 hours ago | parent [-] | | Losing in 2026 barely matters. Existing dem leadership has no desire to end the filibuster, which means we get one bill a year that is full of technocratic approaches. The Trump administration, backed by the supreme court, is accruing more and more power to simply ignore the will of Congress. Even if the dems get some guts and defund ICE, the Trump administration has already demonstrated that it is happy to just illegally distribute or withhold funds wherever it likes. The only way out of this is replacing dem leadership in congress with people who give a shit, winning the presidency in 2028, killing the filibuster, and then going on a serious denazification effort to restructure our institutions so that this sort of shit can't happen. Court packing. Total dismantling and rebuilding of federal law enforcement. Recreating a functional congress. |
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| ▲ | UncleMeat 20 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | There is no way that the republicans split. They are 100% captured by MAGA. The only possible splitting point is with the Fuentes wing, who'd just like to murder all the jews in the country in addition to all of the latinos. |
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| ▲ | UncleMeat 20 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Right. The plan to defeat fascism can't be "never lose a single election ever for the rest of time." Political leaders did absolutely fuck all to consign Trump to the garbage bin of history in 2021 and now we've got a fascist president motivated entirely by two things: hurting as many people he hates as possible and putting up tacky gold shit in the white house. |
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| ▲ | HeinzStuckeIt a day ago | parent | next [-] | | > This is supported by a majority of the US. The election was fairly close. The winning candidate got elected by a coalition of people with differing views on an number of individual items within his platform. That does not equate to certain approval by the majority of the American population of any of the things the linked article recounts. All that said, as an American living abroad who votes left, the use of terms like “kidnapped” and “abducted” to describe immigration-enforcement actions seems really weird to me and my expat peers. There are quite a few democratic, developed countries high on freedom-ranking lists that widely deploy law enforcement to arrest and deport undocumented immigrants and visa overstayers. Sure, deplore lack of due process when actual citizens get caught in the net, but so much use of these loaded terms isn’t even about that, it’s criticizing actions against non-citizens. | | |
| ▲ | ryandrake a day ago | parent | next [-] | | > The winning candidate got elected by a coalition of people with differing views on an number of individual items within his platform. That does not equate to certain approval by the majority of the American population of any of the things the linked article recounts. There may be differing views on other topics among the party, but Republicans broadly support this vision of cruelty and these actions against immigrants[1] by huge margins. It's probably the one single vision they are united behind. 1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45859760 | | |
| ▲ | metalcrow a day ago | parent [-] | | Your citation doesn't support your claim | | |
| ▲ | ryandrake a day ago | parent [-] | | - 74% of Republicans and Republican-leaning independents say the Trump administration is doing the right amount to deport immigrants who are in the U.S. illegally. Another 12% say it’s doing too little and 13% say it’s doing too much. - Nearly nine-in-ten Republicans approve of sending additional U.S. troops to the border (88%) and increasing deportations (86%). More than six-in-ten strongly approve of these actions. - 80% of Republicans approve of cutting federal funds to cities and states if they do not cooperate with deportations - 72% of Republicans approve of suspending asylum applications, with 38% saying they strongly approve. | | |
| ▲ | cloverich 16 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Only that first stat aligns with what you are claiming. Wanting more border / deportations is fully inline with wanting to control immigration. Likewise cutting funds to states not supporting federal law isn't fringe. And asylum applications are clearly broken. You can want all of those things and still be against eg ice agents raiding a school. It would be more accurate if it focused exclusively on the more egregious ICE activities. | |
| ▲ | HeinzStuckeIt a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | It looks like the difference in the popular vote was 2,284,967 votes towards R. Do all of those 2,284,967 voters demonstrably overlap with that 86% of the polled Republicans? If not, then claiming that a majority of Americans support every incident in the linked article based on the last election, lacks basis. | | |
| ▲ | ryandrake a day ago | parent [-] | | I'm not saying anything about the majority of the American population. Just that Republicans broadly support these actions. I hope we never get to the point where a majority of the overall public support this. | | |
| ▲ | immibis a day ago | parent [-] | | 95% of people don't care about anything (but not always the same 95% on every issue). Revolutions are typically caused by 3% of the population outweighing the other 2%, while the 95% do nothing. |
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| ▲ | sgentle a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Do you not think there might be a relationship between the lack of due process and the choice of terms? Like, maybe the defining difference between arrest and abduction is whether the action is the output of an accountable system of justice, rather than whether the people doing it are the right kind of people and the people having it done to them are the wrong kind of people. | | |
| ▲ | HeinzStuckeIt a day ago | parent [-] | | For some years now there has been a segment of the American left, particularly visible on social media, who believes that strictly enforcing immigration laws at all is bad. This predates the current guy, as well as his administration as the former guy. So, when I read an article by someone like the writer here whose online activity has other shibboleths of a left more extreme than found in mainstream parties in many other democracies, my assumption is he is coming out of this trend and the current events, as appalled as he is by them, is not the ultimate cause of his use of that loaded language. |
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| ▲ | stavros a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > The election was fairly close. Yeah but "the totalitarian Neonazis who wanted to deploy secret police were only a slight majority" is really faint praise. | | |
| ▲ | HeinzStuckeIt a day ago | parent [-] | | No, my point was that in a close election that depended on a party building coalitions between heterogenous groups of voters, the people in favor of any particular action taken by the elected government may be a minority of the population, not even a slight majority. | | |
| ▲ | stavros a day ago | parent [-] | | Sure, but in a healthy society, such extreme opinions should never even be close enough to a minority large enough to be elected into power. Hopefully, anyway. | | |
| ▲ | HeinzStuckeIt a day ago | parent [-] | | Blame it on first-past-the-post. It’s just one of the many ways the Founding Fathers sowed the seeds of a politically unhealthy society. |
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| ▲ | metabagel a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | ICE are wearing masks, refusing to identify themselves, abducting citizens and non-citizens alike. They are accusing citizens of assault and then releasing them without charging - a pretty good indication that they lied. They are conducting warrantless searches. There is a case where they rammed the car of a U.S. citizen (clearly seen on video), promptly took her into custody, accused her of hitting them, and then released her without charging her. They are profiling people based on race and ethnicity. The abductions look like kidnappings. They don’t look like law enforcement actions. | | |
| ▲ | HeinzStuckeIt a day ago | parent [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | ryandrake a day ago | parent | next [-] | | In the USA, we have come to expect a certain level of formality, transparency, and adherence to due process when it comes to how law enforcement operates. Or, at least that's what we tell ourselves the standard is. Granted, we've been backsliding in this department for decades, which really started accelerating during the War On Terror. It's not new with this administration. But, we have strayed a long, long way away from the idealized "uniformed cop visibly walking the beat on the street." The whole "masked plainclothes men jumping out of an unmarked van, dragging someone off the street into the van, and swooping away" thing is what the villains in the movies did, not the good guys. | |
| ▲ | queenkjuul a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | These aren't stings. They're in body armor and masks patrolling the streets without badges. |
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| ▲ | queenkjuul a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Many of these people are documented permanent residents or US citizens being grabbed without warrants, without being read rights, without charges, and without an opportunity to present documentation. That's kidnapping. |
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| ▲ | breakyerself a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | A plurality of the people who voted went for Trump not a majority. He won 49.8% of the vote. When you include everyone who is eligible to vote he only got 31.8% of the total electorate. A large percentage of the electorate doesn't vote. | | |
| ▲ | summa_tech a day ago | parent [-] | | If you don't vote, you agree with the majority. Plain and simple! If you want to show your protest, go vote and explicitly vote with an invalid ballot or a third party. Don't give yourself the convenient "out" of staying home and then feeling like you're such a counterculture warrior for doing it. |
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| ▲ | daseiner1 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yup immigration was arguably the concrete issue of the election and these were the campaign promises. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together knew that this is what mass deportation would look like. | | |
| ▲ | metabagel a day ago | parent [-] | | We already had mass deportation under Biden, and it wasn’t conducted in this manner. |
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