| ▲ | wakawaka28 3 days ago |
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| ▲ | vlovich123 3 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| I don’t think Fil-C supplants Rust; Rust still has a place for things like kernel development where Fil-C would not be accepted since it wouldn’t work there. But also Rust today has significantly better performance and memory usage so makes more sense for greenfield projects that might otherwise consider C/C++. Not to mention that Rust as a language is drastically easier and faster to develop in due to a modern package management system, a good fast cohesive std library, true cross platform support, static catching of all the issues that would otherwise cause Fil-C to crash instead in addition to having better performance without effort. Fil-C is an important tool to secure traditional software but it doesn’t yet compete with Rust in the places it’s competing with C and C++ in greenfield projects (and it may never - that’s ok - it’s still valuable to have a way to secure existing code without rewriting it). And I disagree with the characterization of Graydon’s blog. It’s literally praising Fil-C and saying it’s a valuable piece of tech in the landscape of language dev and worth paying attention to as a serious way to secure a huge amount of existing code. The only position Graydon takes is that safety is a critically important quality of software and Fil-C is potentially an important part of the story of moving the industry forward. |
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| ▲ | Klonoar 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Seems like soapboxing for Rust via backhanded compliments about this amazing tool. I'm not sure how you read it that way? To me it reads like "yes, this is a good and notable thing even if it's not perfect". (The creator of Fil-C is also in this thread and doesn't appear to be reading it that way...) |
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| ▲ | wakawaka28 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Don't get me wrong, it sounds positive. A direct attack on Fil-C would have seemed mean-spirited so there is a lot of misdirection. Maybe the author doesn't even see what he's doing because he's so deep in it. But to me the message is clear. No matter what tools are developed for C and C++ to mitigate memory issues, Rust people will never concede that enough of these issues have been solved. They demand a complete rewrite of everything, or at least gradual replacement of all C and C++ code with Rust. Even if Rust is worse in other ways, does not deliver true safety, has technical shortcomings and worse licensing, etc. This post is very polite compared to what I've seen from some Rust fanatics. But it still strikes me as talking down to the C and C++ community, as if these languages are beyond redemption because they don't work the same as Rust. | | |
| ▲ | jamincan 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Graydon's post was about as full-throated an endorsement of Fil-C as you can get, including noting where it's innovations could be used to improve Rust safety. The fact that you see undertones of some sort of deepset Rust agenda to unseat C and C++ is, I think, more a reflection on just how deep down the rabbit hole some Rust critics have gone, seeing so-called Rust zealots hiding in every shadow of the internet. | | |
| ▲ | wakawaka28 2 days ago | parent [-] | | If anything, Rust zealots sure aren't hiding, their agenda is deep-set and out in the open, and they are generally obnoxious. They're pushing the language far harder than it deserves, and harder than I've ever seen any language pushed. They are scrambling to rewrite everything in Rust whether there is any benefit to doing so or not. The inclusion of Rust in the Linux kernel is a prime example. So is the deployment of broken coreutils replacement tools in Ubuntu. If you challenge the obvious campaign, they'll call you a dinosaur or something. This post is borderline or lowkey Rust propaganda IMO. You might disagree with that but you're not going to convince me there is no campaign. It also seems reasonable that Rust programmers would feel threatened by anything that makes C and C++ safer and more usable. While there is some benefit to comparing and contrasting different solutions to memory safety, this guy is clearly biased. | | |
| ▲ | Klonoar 2 days ago | parent [-] | | I don't think you understand that the post was written by the creator of Rust. That he is writing positive things about Fil-C says more than enough. > If anything, Rust zealots sure aren't hiding, their agenda is deep-set and out in the open, and they are generally obnoxious. You really need to drop the paranoia. | | |
| ▲ | wakawaka28 2 days ago | parent [-] | | It's not paranoia, I see what has been taking place as I said. I did not realize that this dude is the author of Rust. I can forgive the creator of a language for stumping for his own product. But he is clearly doing it in this post and making claims that Rust does everything better even as he is saying nice things about Fil-C. If you think my outlook is paranoid or whatever, you should take it up with the Rust community, not me. |
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| ▲ | hitekker 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| From my skim, I didn't see anything mean spirited. So far as I've seen, Graydon is not a zealot and he doesn't play political games. It was a shame to lose his guiding hand |
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| ▲ | wakawaka28 2 days ago | parent [-] | | I'm not familiar with the guy and I can't say that this post is obviously mean. You certainly seem to think very well of him, which might cloud your judgement about what is actually in the post. It just comes off as soapboxing for Rust under the pretense of saying Fil-C is great. It's like reading a review for a movie that says "This movie was good for X, Y, Z reasons but this OTHER movie is at least as good, if not better." The man is certainly entitled to an opinion but I didn't get anything from it besides "I like Fil-C but Rust is still solving this problem a way I like better." | | |
| ▲ | NobodyNada 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > I'm not familiar with the guy Graydon Hoare is the creator of Rust. So of course he likes Rust. And of course his blog post is going to be comparing Fil-C to Rust. Anyone can write a blog post evaluating Fil-C, but only Graydon can compare it to his own design choices and motivations when he attempted to solve a similar problem. That's the whole thing that makes this post interesting. | | |
| ▲ | wakawaka28 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Makes sense. Now I understand why this post is remarkable, rather than just another "Nice try but I think Rust does everything better" advertisement. |
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| ▲ | petesergeant 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > deliver 90% of the benefits of Rust without a rewrite Rust with 1/4 of the speed doesn't feel like 90% of the benefits of Rust. I'm sure the author will make Fil-C faster in time, but Rust is always going to be much faster. |
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| ▲ | wakawaka28 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I wasn't suggesting that you should run everything with Fil-C all the time. If you run it sometimes, you're likely to catch most problems. The ideal tool would be CHERI or something. I think Rust makes a big mistake with its maximal error checking every time you compile, among its other flaws. Rust compile times are high compared to similar C++ code. The compiler has a high amount of necessary complexity that comes into play every time you run the code with a few lines of changes. Of course, C++ has higher compile times than Go and C, and probably some other languages, but they are fairly different languages with different error modes. Let me put it another way. We could say that documentation, code formatting, and even profiling, all have a place in development. So would running a model checker or something. But we don't generally make compilers implement these features and make that a mandatory part of the build. I think the complex memory borrowing scheme of Rust unnecessarily forces the compiler to check a lot of extra stuff specific to a certain class of problem. You don't get a choice about how paranoid you need to be about errors. You just have to eat that long compile time, every time. | |
| ▲ | actionfromafar 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Maybe always faster, but perhaps not always much faster. |
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| ▲ | drnick1 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| And people who just don't like like the Rust "style" and would rather write new software in a familiar language with all the features like classic OOP they they are used to. |
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| ▲ | zozbot234 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | You can use classic OOP in Rust (even implementation inheritance, via the generic typestate pattern!) It's just not a good idea. | | |
| ▲ | wakawaka28 2 days ago | parent [-] | | When I heard that writing a linked list in Rust is a challenging problem, I knew it wasn't for me lol. |
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| ▲ | timeon 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | There are many languages in this space to choose from. |
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