| |
| ▲ | bawolff 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Its kind of irrelavent in an armed conflict. There are a bunch of rules (i.e. the geneva conventions) around who can and cannot be targeted in an armed conflict, but innocent vs guilty is not how it works. Innocent people being killed can sometimes totally be consistent with the rules of war. Guilty people being killed can sometimes be a violation of the rules. Innocent vs guiltly is the wrong metaphor for what makes a legal target. | | |
| ▲ | mmooss 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It's not an armed conflict in any legal sense, according to everyone but partisans (that I've seen). | |
| ▲ | jampekka an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In general only combatants are allowed to be targeted. (Alleged) drug trafficking is not combatting. But in this case the point is a bit moot anyway as laws of war apply only to losers. | |
| ▲ | vincnetas 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Is USA at war though? | | |
| ▲ | NoMoreNicksLeft an hour ago | parent [-] | | In the modern sense, yes. We no longer declare wars explicitly, nor do we limit that decision to Congress. Trump's decision to attack these targets is consistent with every other conflict we've engaged in since before either of us were born... national security threats. Even if you believe the dope itself to be no great national security threat, that's just their payload today, maybe next time they'll smuggle in a nuke or whatever. Of all the things that people on the left might find objectionable about Trump, this should be at the very far bottom of the list. | | |
| ▲ | AlecSchueler an hour ago | parent [-] | | > Even if you believe the dope itself to be no great national security threat, that's just their payload today, maybe next time they'll smuggle in a nuke or whatever. You're saying it's fine that they're killed for something they could "maybe" do in the future? Without even seeing any evidence that they're doing what they're accused of today? Have there been instances in the past of drug smugglers moving into the nuclear warhead smuggling game? |
|
| |
| ▲ | aaronbrethorst 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Its kind of irrelavent in an armed conflict which this is not, so what's your point? | | |
| ▲ | zeroonetwothree 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Seems like it’s turning into one | | |
| ▲ | aaronbrethorst 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | sure does, but temporal considerations matter and the United States military has been killing people—at the President and SecDef's direction—in the Caribbean and Pacific for weeks, now, without even the slightest fig leaf of Congressional authorization. In other words, even if there's a formal declaration of war on Venezuela (which will never happen), that doesn't excuse the prior behavior. |
|
| |
| ▲ | lostlogin 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Innocent people being killed can sometimes totally be consistent with the rules of war. The US attacks people and countries without declaring war. If anyone did this to the US, can you imagine the butt-hurt response? | | |
| ▲ | theoreticalmal 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | The majority of the West has implicitly or explicitly ceded their national defense and warfighting capabilities to the USA. The comparison between USA and “other countries” isn’t really valid, as the situations are vastly different | | |
| ▲ | jampekka an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | What does that mean? That USA is somehow killing people all around the world as a puppet or Iceland or something? | |
| ▲ | AlecSchueler an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The West isn't the world, though. China could start taking out random boats next week. | |
| ▲ | lostlogin an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | US exceptionalism doesn’t make killing ok. |
|
|
| |
| ▲ | breppp 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Although the Venezuela example is quite an overreach, none of these people fall under the US laws you think they do The legal basis is them being declared Unlawful Combatants under the Military Commissions Act of 2006. Once they do they are enemy combatants in war and can be killed. This law was so thoroughly used by all presidents since then that you cannot really claim it's illegal | | |
| ▲ | bulbar 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Although the Venezuela example is quite an overreach To me it sounds like that killing was (possibly) illegal. Idk about that 2006 Act though. From a moral stand point it doesn't matter if it was (possibly) illegal or not however. | | |
| ▲ | Den_VR 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | It matters quite a lot, it’s the biblical difference between killing and murder. | | |
| ▲ | bulbar 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Law at biblical times had a different foundation than today. Today the foundation is legal positivism, which is the philosophical decoupling of moral and law (which sounds terrible at first glance, but is important if you think it through). Therefore, it is not useful to apply the definition of the terms from back then, because the whole context in which they were used doesn't exist anymore. In the Western world, the meaning of murder and killing is different and while that described action might be an unlawful killing (by accident) it most likely was not a murder. |
|
| |
| ▲ | pstuart 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | They're not enemy combatants, at worst they're drug runners. Just because Trump declares something to be true doesn't make it true (although his lackeys will act as if it is). This is not how to deal with The Drug War™, it's very expensive theater that does nothing to address the problem. In fact that very war is the reason why it's a problem in the first place. Remember that an earlier batch of dangerous drug dealers were Americans working out of doctors' offices. | | |
| ▲ | breppp 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I assume the pretext is actually the war on terror because of the heavy involvement of Venezuela and its drug cartels with financing and supporting of Hezbollah and the IRGC https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/02/world/americas/venezuela-... https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/perspectives/PEA3... | |
| ▲ | vkou an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > They're not enemy combatants, at worst they're drug runners. And even at worst, if the Navy boarded those boats, found drugs, summarily executing everyone on board would still be murder. Rule of law is what separates us from animals, and the people ordering and carrying out these killings fall squarely in the latter. Carrying water for this is beyond the pale, but is, of course, fully in alignment with a cornerstone of a political philosophy - that there are rules that protect some people, but do not bind them, and that there are rules that bind other people, but do not protect them. | |
| ▲ | NoMoreNicksLeft an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | > This is not how to deal with The Drug War™, it's very expensive theater that does That's unclear. We'd have to know more about what sort of deterrent it is making on the drug runners. Quite possibly this does have them shitting their pants and delaying shipments hoping to avoid the risk. At the very least that's not absolutely impossible. When someone says "it's expensive theater" in this circumstance, I think that their criticism has more to do with their objection to the person ordering the strikes and less to do with the effectiveness of them, especially considering that we might not know for months what the true impact is. |
| |
| ▲ | pyrale 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | "...And 50 water buffalos too! They were all certified!" |
| |
| ▲ | PenguinCoder 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Unfortunately that had been forgotten in this era. | |
| ▲ | anarticle 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Fun fact, if you're not a US citizen on US soil US law does not apply. I'm not saying this because I'm taking a side, but this was how the Patriot act had knock on effects. An interesting case of this is something like you call a foreign national in another country and this is enough to be able to tap both sides of the conversation via Patriot Act / NSA purview. | | |
| ▲ | godelski 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > not a US citizen ***on US soil*** US law does not apply.
1) these strikes are happening in international waters2) US law definitely applies to non citizens on US soil. Like that's such a ridiculous statement. Even if the law was "we can do whatever if you're not a citizen", that's still law... You think non citizens are all sovereign citizens bound to no law? To be able to do whatever they want? I didn't know my neighbor was a diplomat. I think you mean rights. Which this is much more dubious. The constitution definitely interchanges the use of "citizens" and "people". Notably the 11th amendment uses citizens, specifying belonging to states foreign or domestic. It was ratified only a few years after the Bill of rights, so not like a drastic language change happened. There are people who will argue "the people" means "citizens" but I find that a difficult interpretation if you read the constitution or federalist papers. | | |
| ▲ | nerdsniper an hour ago | parent [-] | | 3) quite a few US laws apply to US citizens on non-US soil (paying domestic taxes on foreign income) 4) US law applies to non-US citizens who have never set foot in the USA (Kim Dotcom) |
| |
| ▲ | brookst 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Are you saying that non-citizen residents of the US are not subject to US laws? That seems dubious. | |
| ▲ | mjanx123 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | A country jurisdiction is both territorial and personal, the laws apply to anyone on the soil, and to the citizens, permanent residents, asylum seekers etc anywhere in the universe. | |
| ▲ | asdefghyk 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | RE ".....not a US citizen on US soil US law does not apply....." Does not maKE SENSE... Why are people extradited to US from overseas locations . Like why they want Julian Assange ? | | |
| ▲ | raspasov 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Just some ideas: - Drone-bombing an embassy in downtown London does not look good on social media - He's too famous and has many supporters in the Western world to be publicly assassinated, regardless of location (example: Lady Gaga visited him while he was stuck in the embassy) - He's more useful as a deterrent, i.e., "see what might happen to you", to the people who might decide to go a similar route. Some will go that route regardless, but chances are at least a few have been persuaded otherwise. For all the ridicule of the government, the Intelligence Community seems to be doing a fairly intelligent job most of the time to satisfy its objectives. | |
| ▲ | bulbar 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It does not apply in general, but a country will always declare jurisdiction if deemed necessary.
A common example in Germany is that the country will try to enforce German law for foreign-hosted websites hosted by citizen of another country if the website is targeted at German citizen. |
| |
| ▲ | LastTrain 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | And we know for sure there were no US citizens on these boats? |
|
|