| ▲ | vbezhenar 2 days ago |
| Few of my relatives just went to Europe as tourists, threw away their back home tickets and went illegal. After few years they legalised and now citizens. And I'm still here, because I don't want to break the law and I don't have valid legal grounds to get the working visa. It sucks to obey the law. |
|
| ▲ | dlisboa 2 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| This is such a common thing and tolerated you have to wonder whether it's actually immoral. I've met many people on my travels who went to Europe on tourist visas, got work and then got to stay legally later. No one was deported. All of these were people in low-paying services industries, jobs Europeans don't usually want (waiters, cleaners, etc). The only ones that had issues with immigration were my qualified worker friends who got a work visa and then the company had layoffs while they were there, losing their sponsorship. People with masters degrees who had to scramble to find new work in 30 days or face deportation. It's hard not to think that's intentional. I have a nuanced opinion because it's a rather complex subject but it's just a weird thing to have seen happen. As a tourist I had to prove up and down I wasn't going to stay there only to see no one else cares outside the airports. There's obvious wage suppression going on with these policies but these waiters and cleaners also had college degrees from good institutions, probably more qualified than some citizens. |
| |
| ▲ | nicbou 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > I've met many people on my travels who went to Europe on tourist visas, got work and then got to stay legally later. That's completely legal for some nationalities, at least in Germany. §41 AufenthV allows people from certain countries to come to Germany and apply for a visa there. A separate paragraph allows people to convert a tourist visa to a residence permit if the reason for the residence permit appeared while they were visiting. For example, going through rounds of interviews, and being offered the job while you're visiting Germany as a tourist. There are so many other paths, but navigating those options can be confusing. | | |
| ▲ | mschuster91 2 days ago | parent [-] | | The problem is, that only works if your Aufenthaltsbehörde isn't swamped in case load. Unfortunately, the ones in cities where tech workers are wanted are swamped and often times you need a lawyer to file an Untätigkeitsklage (inactivity lawsuit) or threaten to do so to get them to respond. The Ausländerbehörden are massively understaffed (well below 50% of what would be needed), and work distribution usually is that anything attached with a court deadline has absolute priority, anything from a lawyer comes next, and whatever comes from a generic person or company just gets shifted to "Ablage P" (the paper recycling bin). | | |
| ▲ | nicbou 2 days ago | parent [-] | | You're right, but I have to say that the Berlin immigration office has greatly improved in the last two years. The wait times are getting a bit more acceptable. The biggest challenge now is housing those newcomers. The housing situation is turning people away. |
|
| |
| ▲ | ohyoutravel 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Borders of countries are fundamentally human constructs. There is no morality associated with crossing them legally or illegally. This is the difference between a law declaring something illegal because they think it is better for society (a parking ticket, say) and a law created that require moral turpitude (murder, say). | | |
| ▲ | layer8 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Morality is a human construct as well, so I don’t quite get your point. | |
| ▲ | DaSHacka 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | A country with no borders is not a country at all, merely an "economic zone" that can be leached until dry. | | |
| ▲ | mock-possum 2 days ago | parent [-] | | What is the mechanism whereby an economic zone is leached, such that borders would protect it? | | |
| ▲ | 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2 days ago | parent [-] | | I don't have hard data yet but I'm pretty sure some cities have suburbs outside them, connected via road, that rich people use as tax havens so they can live near a city without being subject to the laws and taxation of the city | | |
| ▲ | array_key_first 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Right but if you go into a country then you're in the country, not in the outskirts. You still pay taxes (generally...), and, in many countries, don't get any social services. If anything, many formally-colonial countries are leeching off their illegal immigrants, not the other way around. | |
| ▲ | Dylan16807 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Countries are generally big and with cities on both sides of a border so that doesn't seem like it would be a big worry for them. |
|
|
| |
| ▲ | doctorpangloss 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Ha ha, “no morality,” when it’s people you like. You’re saying pogroms aren’t immoral? That’s a “legal” border crossing! |
|
|
|
| ▲ | ricardobeat 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| What do you mean by valid legal grounds? For many countries all you need is to get a local job paying above a threshold, that’s enough to get a work permit. |
| |
| ▲ | monsieurbanana 2 days ago | parent [-] | | You need a work permit to get a job, not the other way around. If you meant a "job offer", yes you can get a work permit with a job offer, but not everybody is that lucky. If you are on a tourist visa you can't legally get a job then worm your way to a valid work/residency visa. I mean you can, just not legally. | | |
| ▲ | ricardobeat 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | It varies per country, for example in the Netherlands as a software engineer and other "highly skilled" [1] roles you can get an HSM visa / work permit. I believe Germany, Denmark and others have similar programs. This is how it works: you interview[2], get a job offer, sign it, then your employer applies for a work permit on your behalf. The only complicated part is collecting your own paperwork. You wait a few weeks/months for approval and move in. It's a lot easier than most people think. The permit is tied to your employment, though it can be transferred, but you cannot get a 'free employment' permit until after five years in the country. For the EU as a whole, the Blue Card serves a similar purpose but is significantly more difficult to obtain. [1] There is no skill/merit assessment like the USA, it's solely based on the salary threshold - basically delegates the skill assessment to the employer. Not every company has access to this program, the job must be advertised as including visa sponsorship. [2] online. Flying over for a final round was common before COVID, I miss those days | | |
| ▲ | 47282847 2 days ago | parent [-] | | +1 We hired someone from Syria as a small and newly formed company in Germany, and all we had to claim is that yes it is a high skill job above a certain salary threshold and no we cannot find a person available with the required skills in Europe. The visa application process from our side was simple and straightforward, no forms, no fees, just a short letter where they told us beforehand via phone what to write to get it accepted, and it was processed very quickly, a few weeks maybe. We didn’t even advertise the job before, it was a position/role created specifically for that person (so from that perspective there was truth behind the statement that we cannot find anyone else suitable for it.) |
| |
| ▲ | embedding-shape 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > You need a work permit to get a job, not the other way around To legally get a job yes, but that tends to not be super effective at stopping people, and even if the job itself is illegal, it can count as something that links you to the society where you want to regularize your situation. Heavy "it depends on the country" since we're talking Europe-wide here. | |
| ▲ | Muromec 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | >You need a work permit to get a job, not the other way around Technically yes, but actually no, because you mostly need an employer to sponsor your work permit, unless you get yourself a residence permit that is not job-related. | |
| ▲ | jrochkind1 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | What might be some of the ways GP poster's family managed it? Pretty much nobody does that in the USA (maybe by getting married? Prob not even that in Trump II), where I am. Come in an a tourist visa, stay over, manage to legalize your stay in a few years and then become a citizen. Nope. | | |
| ▲ | JuniperMesos 2 days ago | parent [-] | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Guevara_(journalist) this guy spent about 20 years attempting to do exactly that, and was only actually caught and deported last month. In this case, the way he was attempting to get legal citizenship was by virtue of his now-adult children who he and his wife had on US soil, which makes the children legally natural-born US citizens. | | |
|
|
|
|
| ▲ | anal_reactor 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Now I'm curious what countries we're talking about and what's the process of "legalisation" |
| |
|
| ▲ | tryauuum 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| How does this happen? Is there a law which just gives you a citizenship if you stayed for N years? |
| |
| ▲ | embedding-shape 2 days ago | parent [-] | | The exact country isn't clear, it depends from country to country. Spain for example have "arraigo social", where I think if you've stayed for 3 years (illegally/legally) and can demonstrate you've ended up in some sort of "link" with Spanish society (like having a permanent job) you can apply for a "temporary residence and work permit". Once you have that, you're legal and you could apply for permanent residence and eventually citizenship, granted you fulfill those requirements. I have a bunch of friends, with jobs ranging from bartenders to software developers, who've successfully were allowed to stay in the country after doing things that way, initially staying illegally and later regularized their situation. |
|
