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| ▲ | subb 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | They are very useful to encode stimuli, but stimuli is "not yet" color. When you have an image that is not just a patch of RGB value, a lot of things will influence what color you will compute based on the exact same RGB. Akiyoshi's color constancy demonstrations are good examples of this. The RGB model (and any three-values "perceptual" model) fails to predict the perceived color here. You are seeing different colors but the RGB values are the same. https://www.psy.ritsumei.ac.jp/akitaoka/marie-eyecolorconsta... | | |
| ▲ | dahart 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Here you’re talking about only perception, and not physical color. You could use 100 dimensional spectral colors, or even 1D grayscale values, and still have the same result. So this example doesn’t have any bearing on whether a 3D color space works well for humans or not. Do you have any other examples that suggest a 3D color space isn’t good enough? I still don’t understand what you meant. | | |
| ▲ | subb 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Yes exactly. I'm intentionally using "color" as a perceptual thing, not as a physical thing. If we are talking about a color model, then it needs to model perception. As such, RGB, as a predictor of perception, can often fail because it doesn't account for much more than what hits the retina, not what happens after. For one, it lacks spatial context - placing the same RGB value with a different surround will feel different, like in the example above. But if you had a real color (as-in, perceptual) picker in Photoshop, you would get a different value. It's excellent at compressing the visible part of the EM spectrum, however. This is what I meant by stimuli encoding. | | |
| ▲ | dahart 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Still not seeing why you claimed color is definitely not something you can plug into a 3D model. We can, and do, use 3D color models, of course. And some of them are designed to try to be closer to perceptual in nature, such as the LAB space like @zeroq mentioned at the top of this sub-thread. No well known perceptual color space I know of, and no color space in Photoshop, accounts for context/surround/background, so I don’t understand your claim about Photoshop immediately after talking about the surround problem, but FWIW everyone here knows that RGB is not a perceptual color space and doesn’t have a specification or standard, and everyone here knows that color spaces don’t solve all perceptual problems. I find it confusing to claim that cone response isn’t color yet, that’s going to get you in trouble in serious color discussions. Maybe better to just be careful and qualify that you’re talking about perception than say something that is highly contestable? The claim that a color model must model perception is also inaccurate. Whether to incorporate human perception is a choice that is a goal in some models. Having perceptual goals is absolutely not a requirement to designing a practical color model, that depends entirely on the design goals. It’s perfectly valid to have physical color models with no perceptual elements. | | |
| ▲ | subb a day ago | parent [-] | | The problem is that we mix up physical and perception, including in our language. If you look at the physical stuff, there's nothing in this specific range of EM radiation that is different from UV or IR light (or further). The physical stuff is not unique, our reading is. Therefore, color is not a physical thing. And so when I say "color" I only mean it to be the construction that we make out of the physical thing. We project back these construction outside of us (e.g. the apple is red), but we must no fool ourselves that the projection is the thing, especially when we try to be more precise about what is happening. This is why I'm saying a 3D model of color (brain thing) is very far from modelling color (brain thing) at all. But! It's not purely physical either, otherwise it would just be a spectral band or something. So this is pseudo-perceptual. It's the physical stuff, tailored for the very first bits of anatomy that we have to read this physical stuff. It's stimuli encoding. If you build a color model, it's therefore always perceptual, and needs to be evaluated against what you are trying to model - perception. You create a model to predict things. RGB and all the other models based on three values in a vaccum will always fail at predicting color (brain!) when the stimuli's surround is more complex. | | |
| ▲ | dahart a day ago | parent [-] | | There’s a valid point in there somewhere, but you’re also saying some stuff that seems hyperbolic and getting harder to agree with. You’re right that perception is complicated, and I agree with you when you say 3D models don’t capture all of perception. That is true. That does not imply that people can’t use 3D models for lots of color tasks. Again, it always depends on your goals. You’re making abstract and general claims without stating your goals. It’s fine for you to think of perception when you say color, but that’s not what everyone means, and therefore, you’re headed for miscommunication when you make assumptions and/or insist on non-standard definitions of these words. Physical color is of course a thing. (BTW, it seems funny to say it’s not a thing after you introduced the term physical-color to this thread.) Physical color can mean, among other things, the wavelength distribution of light power. A physical color model is also a thing, it can include the quantized numerical representation of a spectral power distribution. Red can mean 700nm light. Some people, especially researchers and scientists, use physical color models all the time. You’re talking about meanings that are more specific than the general terms you’re using, so maybe re-familiarizing yourself with the accepted definitions of color and color model would help? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_model Again, it’s fine to talk about perception and human vision, but FWIW the way you’re talking about this makes it seem like you’re not understanding the specific goals behind 3D color spaces like LAB. Nobody is claiming or fooling themselves to think they solve all perception problems or meet all possible goals, so it seems like a straw man to keep insisting on something that was never an issue in this thread. If you want to talk about 3D models not being good enough for perception, then please be more precise about your goals. That’s why I asked what use cases you’re thinking of, and we haven’t discussed a goal that justifies needing something other than a 3D color model - color constancy illusions do not make that point. | | |
| ▲ | subb a day ago | parent [-] | | Unfortunately, it seems like we will not reach any agreement here. |
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| ▲ | IgorPartola 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | I had experimented with some photo printing services and came across one professional level service that offered pigment inkjet printing (vs much more common dye inkjet printing). Their printers had 12 colors of ink vs the traditional 4. I did some test photos and visually they looked stunning. | | |
| ▲ | dahart 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Have you looked at the actual ink colors? Printing is a very different story. They’re not using 12 primaries, they’re using multiple gradations of the same primary. I don’t know which ink set you used, but 5 different grayscale values is common in a 12-ink set. Here’s an example of a 12 ink set: https://www.amazon.com/Xeepton-Cartridge-Replacement-PFI4100... There’s only 1 extra color there: red. There are multiple blacks, multiple cyans, multiple yellows, and multiple magentas. The reason printers use more than 3 inks is for better tone in gradations, better gloss and consistency. It’s not because there’s anything wrong with 3D color models. It’s because they’re a different medium than TVs. Note that most color printers take 3D color models as input, even when they use more than 3 inks. | | |
| ▲ | IgorPartola 2 days ago | parent [-] | | I believe they had the standard CMYK, four shades of black, as well as red, orange, green, and either violet or blue. But it has been a bunch of years so this is off memory. I honestly don’t remember the name of it. What I do remember is that they didn’t not have a web based ordering system. Instead they had a piece of desktop software you had to install. And you had to prove that you are a professional photographer before they would let you create an account. I am not a professional photographer but I did enough amateur photography that I managed to fake my way into it and placed a few orders. Quality was definitely better for all options compared to Nations Photo Lab but so was the price and the ordering setup was much more complex so I didn’t continue using them. They did have a lot more specialty options than any other printer I have seen. |
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| ▲ | wongarsu 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | "You only need three colors" is a bit of a cheat, because it doesn't really work out in reality. You can use three colors to get a good color gamut (as your screen is doing right now), but to represent close to every color we can see you would need to choose a red and blue close to the edge of what we can perceive, which would make it very dim. And because human vision is weird you would need some negative red as well, which doesn't really exist. Printing instead uses colors that are in the range we can perceive well, and whenever you want a color that is beyond what a combination of the chosen CMYK tones can represent you just add more colors to widen your gamut. Also printed media arguably prints more information than just color (e.g. "metal" colors with different reflectivity, or "neon" colors that convert UV to visible light to appear unnaturally bright) | | |
| ▲ | IgorPartola 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Which is interesting because I am printing digital photos which I edit on an RGB screen. | | |
| ▲ | mceachen 2 days ago | parent [-] | | I paid for college in part by doing digital prepress. We had CMYK and 8 and 12 color separations. CMYK always has a dramatic color shift from any on-screen colorspace. Vivid green is really hard to get. Neons are (kinda obviously) impossible. And, hilariously/ironically (given how prevalent they are), all manor of skin tones are tough too. Photoshop and Illustrator let you work in CMYK, and is directionally correct. Ask your printer if they accept those natively. |
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| ▲ | gsck 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | You see this all the time with professional lighting fixtures as well! For example, the ETC Source4 LED Lustr X8 has: Deep Red, Red, Amber, Lime,
Green, Cyan, Blue, Indigo[0] RGB LEDs are pretty crappy at rendering colours as they miss quite a lot of the colour spectrum, so the solution is just add more to fill in the gaps! [0] https://www.etcconnect.com/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=10... |
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