| ▲ | vermilingua 3 days ago |
| I’m sure there would be a long line of willing terminal and euthanasia patients who would join a study to record their final moments, I’m surprised this hasn’t been done yet. |
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| ▲ | Sam6late 3 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| I drowned once in a swimming pool, the clear water tricked me that it was not that deep, 3 meters, then I was 7 and in my memory flashback, I was scared that I ran away from school, it warned me that I would be punished soon for it, it was my final thought until I regained consciousness after getting rescued by Badr the lifeguard there, and the nightmare of fear of punishment returned. It was a very hot summer day in 1968.That flashback was annoying the way it summarized everything in seconds. |
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| ▲ | ttcbj 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I agree. I read an article a few months ago about how frequent MAID (medical assistance in dying) is in Canada. I am surprised that that has not led to larger scale studies about the dying process. In this particular case, the press release notes "Scientifically, it's very difficult to interpret the data because the brain had suffered bleeding, seizures, swelling...". That does seem to limit how much can be generalized from this one case. A larger study of MAID patients would be more useful. Edit: Maybe the issue is that the MAID itself would alter the brain state. That actually seems pretty plausible. |
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| ▲ | system2 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Must be a wild experience to be hooked up to a bunch of test machines while dying on schedule. |
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| ▲ | matwood 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I went out to a loop choke once in BJJ. I wasn’t out long, but I wondered after if that’s what death is like - a flash of thought and that’s it. |
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| ▲ | bongodongobob 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Lmao. "After you're dead, let us know how it went." |
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| ▲ | lynx97 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I am not so sure about this. What would motivate someone to willingly transform their last moments into a medical experiment, with all the risks of being treated in not-so-nice ways? Almost nobody wants to die in a hospital in the first place. And as part of a medical "experiment", no thanks. Science can fuck off as long as they don't have control over their (small, but existing) emotionally detached workers. https://youtu.be/ET71mabgEuM |
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| ▲ | jbstack 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | It doesn't matter that you aren't sure, and it doesn't even matter if most people agreed with you. Around 60 to 70 million people die every year globally, so if even a tiny fraction of these were willing to take part there would be sufficient numbers for a statistically significant study. In any case, the fact that a significant number of people opt for organ or body donation suggests they are willing to allow their deaths to be useful to others in some way. | | |
| ▲ | lynx97 3 days ago | parent [-] | | Organ donations pretty much happen after the fact, so that isn't really worth a comparison. There is a reason why Monty Python did their "can we have your liver then" sketch... | | |
| ▲ | jbstack 3 days ago | parent [-] | | It's still a worthwhile comparison because it demonstrates that some people have a desire to turn their death into something meaningful or useful to others. After, all question was "what would motivate someone to willingly transform their last moments into a medical experiment?", and my examples are about motivation. For some that motivation might be strong enough to be willing to undergo some discomfort (if, indeed there needs to be any discomfort in the first place, which isn't clear). For others, it might not be. | | |
| ▲ | lynx97 3 days ago | parent [-] | | If you say so--for the sake of winning an arguemnt--there you go. You can have your victory, I don't care. The difference is still very fundamental, in a literal sense. Most people opposed to organ donations have religious reasons. I am an (not opted-out) organ donor, and I don't care about that. However, I would violently oppose being subjected to more machines then absolutely necessary while dying. | | |
| ▲ | jbstack 3 days ago | parent [-] | | It's not about my victory or yours. It's merely the recognition that people can have all sorts of reasons for doing all sorts of things, and one person can think nothing of doing a thing which the person next to them would never dream of doing. The fact that you personally would be happy to be an organ donor but would draw the line at having an ECG while dying is a perfectly valid position to take. Many people would no doubt take the same position. It's unlikely though that 60-70 million people per year would all react that way. Neither of us has to be right or wrong here (about the difference between the two scenarios), because it's other people's motivations we're talking about. |
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| ▲ | eszed 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I'd sign up for this without a second's hesitation. I actually had the thought of "how could I volunteer?" while reading the article. My personal primum mobile is learning - I'm curious (to some extent) about (nearly) everything - and along with that goes an urge to help satisfy other people's curiosity. I'm curious about my death, too! I've sat with people who are very close to that edge, and I realize it's the last experience I'll ever have, the last lesson I'll ever learn, and find it poignant that I won't be able to tell anyone else about it. Being part of an experiment like this would be... satisfying, somehow. It feels like it would give meaning to my death. I respect that you have a different point of view, but I hope that helps you understand what would motivate someone to do something like this. | |
| ▲ | TheCoelacanth 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Why do people write wills? Why do people leave messages for their loved ones before they die? Why do people donate organs? Because they care about leaving behind an impact after they die. I don't think it would be for everyone, but there surely be some people who would want to do this. | |
| ▲ | vermilingua 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I don’t see any reason why this would have to be an uncomfortable experience. A study with this kind of potential could easily get funding to relocate necessary equipment to a home or chosen location (assuming the participant is able to die outside hospital), and once the equipment is set up and running it’s unlikely that operators would even need to be present. | |
| ▲ | sokoloff 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Given I’m going to die anyway, I’d readily do it. How else will we increase our understanding of the brain’s experience of dying? And it seems that even beyond the mere understanding, we might be able to prepare for and manage short-term care of imminent organ donors as just one concrete case. | |
| ▲ | BriggyDwiggs42 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I don’t think most people have the perspective that you do. | |
| ▲ | exe34 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Science can fuck off not all of it, presumably, if you want to express your distaste on the magical glass slab and you want pain killers on your way out. | |
| ▲ | NaomiLehman 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | "Science can fuck off" - reminded me of Ricky from Trailer Park Boys. I a good way :) |
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| ▲ | Noumenon72 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Ethicists forbid studying anything interesting, leaving us to scrape up data from natural experiments like this patient having a heart attack while already hooked up to an EEG. |
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| ▲ | dmacedo 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | What a weird way of phrasing that.
The whole point of ethics in multiple disciplines is to try and study the principles of humanity in the society we've formed. The areas of philosophy, medicine, justice, and religion are filled with centuries of discussions trying to argue and explain a lot of these matters. But the philosopher of the Internet of today, instead of curiosity of reasoning and arguing for what should change in deontology, and why; sums it up as "ethicists forbid...". I'd really like to understand your views better on what should change and why... Especially when there's plenty of ignoring of ethics in today's world! | | |
| ▲ | Noumenon72 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | The centuries of ethics discussions have nothing to do with the current institutions that gatekeep science and health with worries and trivia, any more than philosophers of nature are responsible for enviromentalists not letting us build housing. I'm entirely referring to anti-growth bureaucrats. https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/31/highlights-from-the-co... Ethicists seem worse for the world than actually unethical people because they bind the majority of good people from progressing, which is what gets us out ahead of our baser natures. | | |
| ▲ | spookie 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I believe that many of the criticisms are either naive or intentionally ignore the importance of ethical oversight in research. The existence of these processes ensures that research is conducted with rigor and thought, which is crucial for maintaining high standards. Some examples suggest they aim at those high standards, and yet fail to see the value on these. These applications allow you to dissect, discuss and reason about every presumption you had coming in, how you handle people's data with care, understand the risks and be prepared for anything. They help both you and your participants. Help you not be an idiot, help you to grow and question your own procedures, and ultimately help you write the damn paper as you have clearly given the matter enough thought at that point. You need to prove yourself, and that is a good thing. | |
| ▲ | beowulfey 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Without ethics, other motivations inevitably end up undermining any good intentions an experimenter may have. Ethics are the "laws" of science that constrain us for the sake of all. Your opinions here reflect a Libertarian bent, I bet. |
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| ▲ | 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | hurrckplgbd 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | If we were to abolish ethics in research, would you volunteer to be experimented on without bounds? |
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