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delichon 4 days ago

I'd guess that Heinlein was aware of it and scaled it up in his imagination.

  The Roads must roll — they are the arteries of the nation. When they stop, everything stops. Factories idle, food rots, men starve. The nation cannot live without its Roads.
  
  A thousand feet wide, level as a floor, strip after strip moving past in ordered procession. The slow strips on the outside moved at five miles an hour; the inner ones faster and faster, until the express strip in the center rushed past at a hundred miles an hour.

  -- The Roads Must Roll, Astounding Science Fiction, June 1940.
https://ia601208.us.archive.org/32/items/calibre_library_178...
mikkupikku 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Asimov went into some detail with this premise too, in Caves of Steel iirc. I suppose he probably got it from Heinlein.

lloeki 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Caves of Steel indeed (I seem to recall a more elaborate section but can't find it again):

There was the usual, entirely normal crowd on the expressway: the standees on the lower level and those with seat privileges above. A continuous trickle of humanity filtered on the expressway, across the decelerating strips to localways or into the stationaries that led under arches or over bridges into the endless mazes of the City Sections. Another trickle, just as continuous, worked inward from the other side, across the accelerating strips and onto the expressway.

There were the infinite lights: the luminous walls and ceilings that seemed to drip cool, even phosphorescence; the flashing advertisements screaming for attention; the harsh, steady gleam of the “lightworms” that directed THIS WAY TO JERSEY SECTIONS, FOLLOW ARROWS TO EAST RIVER SHUTTLE, UPPER LEVEL FOR ALL WAYS TO LONG ISLAND SECTIONS.

Most of all there was the noise that was inseparable from life: the sound of millions talking, laughing, coughing, calling, humming, breathing.

No directions anywhere to Spacetown, thought Baley.

He stepped from strip to strip with the ease of a lifetime’s practice. Children learned to “hop the strips” as soon as they learned to walk. Baley scarcely felt the jerk of acceleration as his velocity increased with each step. He was not even aware that he leaned forward against the force. In thirty seconds he had reached the final sixty-mile-an-hour strip and could step aboard the railed and glassed-in moving platform that was the expressway.

No directions to Spacetown, he thought.

donkey_brains 3 days ago | parent [-]

Harlan Ellison also referred to “slidewalks”. They form a major plot point in “Repent, Harlequin! Said The Ticktockman”, in which the Harlequin at one point dumps millions of jellybeans on the slidewalk, jamming it and making workers late for their shift.

pyrale 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Vance also had a novel with mechanical roads. I guess that was a common trope back when the first mechanical stairs appeared.

galaxyLogic 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I read this as a teenager in a Sci-Fi compilation without paying much attention to the author, so I forgot where I read it or who wrote it or where I could find it again. But I composed and tape-recorded a melody to the lyrics which still hums in my head :

  While you ride
  While you glide
  We are watching down inside
  that your roadways go rolling along. ...
Thanks for posting.
jdougan 3 days ago | parent [-]

I think the original was supposed to be to the music from "The Caissons Go Rolling Along".

OisinMoran 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Also Arthur C Clarke in The City and the Stars (1956):

“An engineer of the ancient world would have gone slowly mad trying to understand how an apparently solid roadway could be fixed at the sides while toward the centre it moved at a steadily increasing velocity.”

troupo 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It was a recurring theme throughout most of Golden Age fiction.

E.g. Clifford D. Simak mentions them as a mode of transportation in The Goblin Reservation, Asimov has them in Robots of Dawn, and I'm sure I'm forgetting plenty more.

It could be that it was Heinlein who kicked of the trend.

bobthepanda 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

People have tried faster moving walkways many times. The problem is getting humans on and off such a system safely in a way that is easy to maintain.

In practice, everyday transportation systems need to accommodate a wide variety of users safely, like a toddler, or a commuter holding a cup of coffee, or a grandmother with a walker.

Animats 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

> People have tried faster moving walkways many times. The problem is getting humans on and off such a system safely in a way that is easy to maintain.

Right. You can build it, but not make it ADA-compliant. One subway station in France tried a 4km/h moving sidewalk, but the accident rate was too high.

The Paris system was really two trains on parallel tracks. Here's the mechanism.[1] Same concept as buses and trains where there are turntable sections between the cars. Powered by motors on the tracks. Possibly the first application of distributed power, with many motors pulling together in a controlled way.

Disney's PeopleMover, also powered by track motors and friction, can be thought of as a descendant. Disney had elaborate plans for little cars on tracks for EPCOT, but that never worked out.

[1] https://www.worldfairs.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=125-l...

swores 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

The too-fast one in Paris was 12km/h, not 4km/h which would be OK.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_walkway#Trottoir_roulan...

brohee 3 days ago | parent [-]

I took it many times, it didn't feel particularly dangerous but you had to pay more attention than on a regular moving walkway. What ultimately killed it was reliability, availability was too low. With more deployed I guess the kinks would have slowly disappeared, but the market just doesn't seem to be there.

natmaka 3 days ago | parent [-]

Maybe because they began to iron out problems and saw the TCO rise too much.

tensor 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Pearson airport in Toronto has ones that accelerate up to a fast speed. People who can’t use them can either walk beside them or hire a small electric golf cart. There is no reason to ban them just because a small portion of the population can’t use them.

tomatocracy 3 days ago | parent [-]

Not sure but I think I read a while ago that they were removed due to unreliability (it's a while since I've been there myself).

It was very clever how they did the acceleration/deceleration - the "tiles" of the walkway fit together in such a way that each could slide on top of the next one, and at the two ends the tiles would gradually slide closer together (decelerating) or further apart (accelerating).

tensor 3 days ago | parent [-]

They were still there pretty recently when I was there. All escalators are a pain for maintenance though. Sure it's cheaper to force people to walk but that's not the point.

bobthepanda 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

it is worth noting that we have transportation systems where you get into a slow moving vehicle that then speeds up. the cable car is a lot safer than a faster moving sidewalk because you can just get inside and sit down securely.

of course, it takes up a lot more space and costs a lot more money.

Animats 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

That's been tried. Never Stop Railway, 1924.[1] The drive system is a variable pitch screw between the rails. Large screw pitch between stations for fast travel, much tighter pitch in stations for very slow movement along the platform.

Never tried again with that kind of drive, although there are park rides where the loading platform moves. This requires safety devices and staff to prevent people jams at the end of the platform.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EX_MlWL7YKM

bobthepanda 4 days ago | parent [-]

I'm talking about aerial cable cars, which are plenty in use around the world today. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/X5qjnryYWQY

They are pretty common tourist transports in mountainous areas and ski resorts. They're even being used for regular public transport now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdTE4TCqkZo

Someone 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

And you can only hop on/hop off a cable car at predetermined locations. To keep average speed high, those tend to be spaced relatively far apart.

I’m not sure about the “takes a lot more space”, and I definitely doubt about the “costs a lot more money”. Using outdoor escalators as proxies, I suspect outdoor moving sidewalks will need lots and lots of maintenance. If you want to have some guarantee of service you’ll also need multiple sidewalks side-by-side.

rkagerer 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

That link is fantastic, thanks!

HarHarVeryFunny 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

One of the Canadian airports has a moving walkway that has slow on/off sections and a faster (5mph?) middle. It works a bit like a Ski lift where the chairs (walkway sections) basically bunch up at the start/end to slow down.

Here at 4:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMlLPgAL2h0

southwindcg 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I believe it was H.G. Wells, in his A Story of the Days to Come (1897) and When the Sleeper Wakes (1899).

animal531 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Back in the heyday there was this idea of the arcology where a group of people had it with their government and made their own city-utopia which would rule itself.

Very often in those they featured technology like the staggered automated walkways for transporting people around, etc.

comrade1234 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think about this every time I get on a moving walkway and wish it had a few more speeds.

drfenagle 4 days ago | parent [-]

I think about:

https://m.soundcloud.com/thomas-dolby-official/pedestrian-wa...

eCa 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This somehow feels like the horizontal equivalent of a Pater Noster elevator. But probably with even worse error modes if it stops working at 100mph.

Schiphol 3 days ago | parent [-]

There's one of those still in operation at the University of Sheffield! Pretty stressful. https://sheffield.ac.uk/efm/paternoster

JKCalhoun 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yeah, love that idea of progressive velocities. I ant someone to at least build a short test track like this so we can play with it.

Seem to recall they were called "slidewalks" by some Sci-Fi author—probably Heinlein, eh?

rootbear 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Larry Niven called them slidewalks and I've always been sorry this terminology never caught on.

Loughla 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

The things I took away from reading Niven was transfer booths. The world has homogenized because information and people were transmitted instantly one from corner of the globe to another.

Ooohhh boy.

eszed 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

I loved the conservation of momentum "hack" for those teleportation booths. Go on, everyone who hasn't read it, see if you can guess how he dealt with that.

Loughla 3 days ago | parent [-]

I love the ring world series until all the furry porn. He really should've stopped before coming up with rishing.

bayindirh 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

If you want to see this idea taken to the next level, you should read Dan Simmons' Hyperion Cantos. ;)

Loughla 3 days ago | parent [-]

I have a tattoo of the tree ship yggdrasill.

The consul's tale should be required reading for anyone working in the tech field.

bayindirh 2 days ago | parent [-]

I consider the whole Cantos as a great book on ethics and empathy.

Funnily, every syncthing node on my network has a Farcaster folder.

Maybe I should read it again sometime.

Al-Khwarizmi 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

In the UK, Singapore and maybe other countries with British influence, they use the word travelator, which I find quite cool as well.

walthamstow 3 days ago | parent [-]

Just like an escalator, but without the escalation!

bryanrasmussen 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

so assuming inner sidewalk moving at 100 mph, next outer at 95, and each moving at 5 per less, when big muscular terrorists placed on s-100 carrying a big cardboard box filled with nails and throw it as quickly and hard as possible so that the box of nails open up over s-75 at what velocity are the nails raining down on pedestrians on s-75?

Retric 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Oddly I’m pretty sure a strong guy throwing a rock really hard at someone without the walkways would do way more damage. Nails at those speeds just aren’t that dangerous because their momentum is so low and they aren’t particularly sharp.

pyrale 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Pedestrians would likely not be hit, because few would want to walk there with a 75mph headwind in the first place.

rbanffy 2 days ago | parent [-]

The headwind wouldn’t be that bad because the people ahead of you are dragging some air with them.

Now I want to learn to use the CFD kit and figure out what it’d be.

bryanrasmussen 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Assuming that these terrorists are relatively fast runners, being in good shape, and they decide to exit the walkways on the other side, how far on the other side will they be in relation to the nail rain on s-75 they caused.

hmmokidk 4 days ago | parent [-]

Two planes are headed towards new york. The first is descending into the city at 805 miles per hour. The second 846 miles per…

bryanrasmussen 4 days ago | parent [-]

given these facts that I have already laid out, which terrorist has the blue handlebar mustache?

xarope 4 days ago | parent [-]

what color was the bike the ape was riding, when the terrorist with the blue handlebar threw his nails?

JKCalhoun 4 days ago | parent [-]

The North Pole.

JoeAltmaier 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Compared to doing that from a moving car?

tangus 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Everybody carries a gun in Heinlein stories, so those terrorists will be quickly dealt with by armed citizens, thus confirming the superiority of Libertarianism.

delichon 3 days ago | parent [-]

In 1940 when he wrote this Heinlein was a New Deal Democrat supporter of Franklin Roosevelt. He was an active progressive who had recently worked on Upton Sinclair’s socialist “End Poverty in California” campaign. His libertarian shift was twenty years in the future, in his fifties.

philipallstar 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Those people were "everyone's self-sufficient, so only a few people down on their luck need the state" folk. They didn't realise that loads of people wouldn't be like that if they didn't have to be.

WorldMaker 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Heinlein's alleged libertarian shift. In the 1940s Heinlein was mentioned as a Social Credit supporter which implied he was always on the libertarian side of Socialism. Social Credit was the American party killed/disrupted by the red scare that believed in a UBI and universal health care. His posthumous published but first written novel "For Us, The Living" is even a wonderfully naive paean to UBI and credits a Social Credit party for its enactment and ensuing utopia.

Heinlein formally disowned some of those ideas, but did so under the duress of the McCarthy era and the Red Scare. Yet he also kept writing about them, just somewhat cloaked. Both "Stranger in a Strange Land" and "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" are some of the most Socialist books I've ever read, if you assume the first person narrators are for the most part bloviating Vonnegut-esque patsies (rather than the author stand-ins they are often read to be; Heinlein seemed to clever for that). "Stranger in a Strange Land" is entirely about community effort and Socialism. It contrasts interestingly with "For Us, The Living" in part because cynicism seems to have been the big shift and Heinlein can no longer imagine America leading the charge towards Socialism and invents a dead Martian race to do it. "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" is often credited as a deeply Libertarian book, but I think a lot of that is misreading the narrative and not paying attention to especially the second half of the book, which is entirely about AI-lead worker's strikes towards the goals of unionization. The first half sounds like a Libertarian dream and the narrator character describes it in lush terms that make it sound so, but plot is about overthrowing that and building a much more Socialist Moon together. Heinlein even comments about that misreading in "The Cat Who Walks Through Walls" which intentionally begins on a Moon like the one people reading the first half of "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" seem to love, dialed up to 11 to better make it a grungy harsh Noir place for a classic gumshoe-for-hire to live, and eventually through world hopping the main character does happen to stop by "Mike's Moon" (Heinlein actually names his timelines based on the first man to step foot on the moon, I'm feeling to lazy to look this one up, but this timeline is also prominently known for a Moon AI named "Mike") after the events of "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" and it reads a lot more Socialist and lot kinder than the protagonist's Moon the book started in.

A lot of modern Libertarians wouldn't expect a crossover boundary with Socialism like Social Credit, which is one of the problems with claiming politics is a spectrum or plane (there are more useful curves where ideologies meet than that), and a lot of modern Libertarians don't trust ideas like UBI and universal health care and don't trust things like unions again this century (despite having past pro-worker/pro-union perspectives), so it is easy to claim that Heinlein shifted over 20 years. But also, if Heinlein was a Social Credit + Libertarian throughout his life, the rest of politics shifted so much around Heinlein that he may have stayed in exactly the same place and it looked like he shifted.

I think his writing certainly shifted, but I think towards cynicism and anger and frustration after WWII and especially after the Red Scare, not necessarily towards deeper Libertarianism.

I also think there are lessons there for modern Libertarians, too. There are modern Libertarians feeling receptive to talking about ideas like UBI again as something that can have space in Libertarian conversations. There could be room in American politics again for a party like Social Credit that can be a coalition between Libertarian values and Democratic Socialist ones. The Libertarians could find better creative allies than destructive tendencies of "the far right". Talking about Heinlein's books isn't a bad place to start those conversations.

delichon 3 days ago | parent [-]

Thanks for that scholarly and thoughtful comment. The intro to The Roads Must Roll is an example of that complexity. It starts with a labor union meeting arguing for the workers to strike, and then a counter argument that could be an unacknowledged contribution from Ayn Rand. And this was from the presumably progressive early Heinlein.

I'd like to be there for a debate between 1940 Heinlein and 1980 Heinlein. I wouldn't be surprised if that event is scheduled for the Howard family reunion at the end of time and Time Enough for Love.

WorldMaker 3 days ago | parent [-]

Which, to be fair, is also a Socialist utopia couched into a lot of Libertarian jargon/perspectives (to well beloved to mock extremes such as the way that society handles, say, the "Extreme Libertarian" approach to the incest taboo).

ludicrousdispla 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They have an inner and outer set of moving sidewalks as the loading area for one of the Harry Potter Universal Orlando rides (the one in Hogwart's Castle.) It's extremely disorienting at first but they have lots of staff moving people into the seats, so no one ends up hitting the walls.

We were casually waiting in line for a while, then suddenly we were led into the area to get onto the ride and had a 'holy shit, they're serious about this one' moment.

Edit: the Universal Hollywood ride doesn't seem to have this (as of 2024), so I'm not sure if the Orlando one still does.

narag 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The slow strips on the outside moved at five miles an hour; the inner ones faster and faster...

Not good enough. The same strip should go faster and faster over time and decelerate near its end. It sounds impossible, but I can think of a few ways to make it work.

pmontra 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

The naive implementation is a train: everybody enters at once at a fixed point, the strip accelerates, everybody leave at the next stop or stay for the next stop. I wonder if you devised a way to make people keep accelerating while other enter and leave the strip. Side strips at lower speeds are too easy a solution.

josefx 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

One of the videos in the article mentions an accelerating moving walkway: https://youtu.be/CMlLPgAL2h0?t=240

Hard_Space 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Wow, this is exactly the staggered-speed walkway system I once saw in a Philip K. Dick short story, forget which, but obviously it was written after this.