I'm not even debating the legality of the stop. It doesn't matter. Whether or not the stop is legit the whole system from there on is a kangaroo court rife with rights violations as well. That's the real problem here. Hair splitting over the specific reason for a stop is a distraction. Even if you fix it it won't change much. Whether or not they can make the stop doesn't really matter. They'll find other ways to force people to produce their papers.

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estearum 5 days ago | parent [-]

It literally changes whether brown-ish Americans can go about their day without being thrown on the ground in zipties or not.

> They'll find other ways to force people to produce their papers

Okay, so make them find other, increasingly illegal ways so they can be held accountable at a future date. Not quasi-blessed by SCOTUS's delay tactics.

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potato3732842 5 days ago | parent [-]

Tell that to all the black new yorkers who had their guns and/or weed stolen by the government during the stop and frisk era.

Having the ability to stop people isn't worth much if you don't have the unaccountable bureaucracy that can unilaterally doll out whatever punishment it wants.

The usefulness of these sort of fishing exercises regardless of what kind of violation is being gone after is wholly predicated on the upstream system denying these people their rights. If enforcement bureaucracies had to give everyone subject to "serious punishment" (whatever we agree that is, incarceration likely fits it) real rights, follow real protocols involving warrants, evidince, etc, etc. and potentially drag them in front of a jury then you wouldn't have any of this.

And it's not just limited to ICE. Pretty much every other law (and I don't just mean criminal, civil too) enforcement excess evaporates overnight if people get full protection afforded by their rights after law enforcement interacts with them.

Now, you could argue that we should instead impose the constraints on law enforcement contact and then all these unaccountable systems that violate people's rights will be fine because the enforcers won't be shoving innocent people into them, but looking at the last ~50yr of executive branch (not just feds, states very much too) history, that's basically what we've done and it clearly hasn't worked.

This isn't a brown people problem. This is a bigger fundamental problem with how we've architected law (once again, not just criminal) enforcement in this country. The brown people are just the newsworthy implementation at this particular minute.

	▲	estearum 5 days ago \| parent [-]
		You mean the policy that was aggressively fought by the very same people fighting this policy? Who exactly do you think you're arguing against here? Are you looking for a "good job potato3732842 for being mad about Stop and Frisk previously," and unless you get that you're going to hem and haw about how awful a nationwide expansion of a far more aggressive variant with far worse consequences at orders of magnitude larger scale of a similar policy is? > enforcement excess evaporates overnight if people get full protection afforded by their rights after law enforcement interacts with them. Yeah, duh. That's why people are here advocating for people to retain their rights and for law enforcement to be held accountable. If your argument is that the current policy is just another point on the same continuum as many others: yes, obviously that's true. If your argument is that this means it's somehow equivalent to other points on the same continuum: no, obviously it's not. If your argument is instead that this is a different point on the same continuum, but because people weren't upset about Point A they have no justification to be upset (or even more upset) about Point B: that's ridiculous.