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dragonwriter 6 days ago

Most of Federal law enforcement except for those that patrol certain, usually sharply defined (but see border patrol for a big exception) areas historically has been in one of two modes interacting: either gathering information (this includes serving a search warrant), or arresting based on an existing arrest warrant, usually from a felony indictment. In the former case, something really out of ordinary has to happen to turn it into an arrest in that interaction (though that doesn't mean you wont be indicted and arrested based on it) and in the latter nothing is likely to deter arrest.

Border patrol specifically is wildly different, looking for people who are suspected of being subject to their jurisdiction without a specific indictment, detaining with in practice, if not in law, a much lower standard of suspicion than applies usually, and then generally having those detained subject to process that is almost entirely within executive branch “courts” with consequences as severe as criminal process but much lower protections than criminal process (where literal toddlers defend themselves in “court" against government lawyers.)

The current “immigration” crackdown, while ICE (which historically has worked more like a regular federal law enforcement agency despite its detainees often flowing into the executive immigration system and not the criminal justice system) has been the public face of it is effectively applying the Border Patrol culture/approach far more broadly (which is also why, in frustration with the “inadequate” results so far ICE middle leadership is being purged and replaced with Border Patrol personnel.)

potato3732842 6 days ago | parent [-]

I agree with all that generally.

There's real serious questions about what rights people have when being accused of non-criminal infractions and to what degree the punishments can overlap that people ought to be asking here.

But nobody on HN wants to ask these questions because all the things HN wants strictly regulated are done so using the same legal theories and doctrines and precedents.

lukan 6 days ago | parent [-]

Are you aware that HN is not of a single mind?

joquarky 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

I'm almost 50 and I've seen this pattern many times now.

Once the fallacy of composition starts becoming common in a forum, it is the beginning of the end for good discourse.

potato3732842 5 days ago | parent [-]

Oh really?

I dare you to say with a straight face that opinions questioning the legal doctrine or legitimacy of civil regulation are anything other than an occasional rounding errors when the subject is any sort of regulation that people here generally likes.

It is not at all a stretch to say this HN believes strongly that administrative/civil law as it mostly currently stands is highly legitimate.

Of course, backpedaling and hair splitting ensues and the "doesn't represent us all" excuse flies when someone points out that those legal doctrines and, precedents are also empowering ICE. At some point you're responsible for who you associate with.

lukan 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

Have you ever read the guidelines around here?

potato3732842 5 days ago | parent [-]

Yes, I have. So you're conceding my point then? Because why else would you drag the conversation towards "you're making your point with poor manners"?

lukan 5 days ago | parent [-]

In the guidelines there is an emphasis on curious debate. Also about political things, but those tend to be more controversial, so are avoided by default.

Do you understand that point? Political debate is discouraged here by design.

So the reason you won't find so much about this concrete ICE issue is simply that this type of debate is not welcome in general and does not say anything about "HN" communities position.

Second thing is, there is no such thing as "HN mind".

You can extrapolate some averages, but .. I for example ain't even from the US.

"opinions questioning the legal doctrine or legitimacy of civil regulation are anything other than an occasional rounding errors when the subject is any sort of regulation"

And from radical anarcho anarchists to radical communists, I have read all sorts of opinions here.

Lastly, the guidelines strongly advice against debating in a "engaged mind". Meaning, you sound a bit emotional and aggressive. I perceive that as attacking .. and my default mode would answer in a different way and we would be in a flamewar situation. (Despite we likely agree on the political side of things here)

joquarky 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Here's some wisdom for you:

"The world is what you make of it" can be interpreted multiple ways.

potato3732842 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

You can say that about any group. Sure there's a long tail of rare people who can do better but averages and means will be what they are.

The tech industry is full of fine software developers. Not sure they'd make great public policy.

5 days ago | parent [-]
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