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mkovach 17 hours ago

Ah, Borland’s IDE! An absolute delight. I’ve yet to find anything modern that matches it. Sure, nostalgia turns everything syrupy, but I actively hunt for excuses to use Free Pascal just to fire up that interface. Okay, fine—I like Pascal too. You caught me.

I also use Sam and Acme from Plan 9 (technically from the excellent plan9port), but let’s be honest: those aren’t IDEs. They’re editors. Tools that let me think instead of wrestle.

There’s a lot we could (and probably should) learn from the old TUIs. For example, it’s perfectly acceptable, even heroic, to spawn a shell from the File menu and run something before returning. Seems people are afraid of losing style points with such grievous actions.

And the keybindings! So many of those classic TUIs adopted WordStar’s sacred keystrokes. They’re burned into my muscle memory so thoroughly that using EMACS feels like trying to type with oven mitts. For years, joe (with the blessed jstar alias) was my editor of choice.

Anyway! Time to boot the Dr. DOS VM, spin the wheel of Advent of Code, and be nostalgically inefficient on purpose.

bombcar 16 hours ago | parent | next [-]

One thing about the "professional" DOS software (and you can see it in things like Emacs - eight modes and constantly shifting) was you were basically expected to live in it - it had the full attention of the computer and the user.

You were also expected to learn it; which meant you became "one with the machine" in a way similar to an organ player.

I remember watching Fry's Electronics employees fly through their TUI, so fast that they'd walk away while it was still loading screens, and eventually a printout would come out for the cage.

Aurornis 15 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> it had the full attention of the computer and the user.

This why I like to use the full screen mode of my editors and IDEs.

It surprises a lot of people who see my screen. Full screen features are everywhere but rarely used.

vunderba 14 hours ago | parent [-]

Agreed. I do a lot my writing in Typora which, in addition to a full-screen mode, also has other "Focus" style features which get rid of distracting UI/UX elements, etc. so you can concentrate on the task at hand.

chiph 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Paying at Best Buy was torture - watching the cashier move their mouse around (on the slanted mousing surface they were given so they couldn't just let go) and click the buttons, going through 3 or 4 screens and waiting for them to load vs. using the keyboard. They would have been done with me and on to the next customer in half the time.

Mountain_Skies 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

About twenty years ago I did a consulting gig for a government agency that wanted to create a web interface for their CSRs to replace the green screens they had been using. The long time employees hated it because they had deep muscle memory for most tasks on the green screens and could get far ahead of the screen refresh. With the web UI, not only could they not type ahead, but many of the workflows now required use of the mouse.

The agency was happy to have something new and modern but more important to them was that new employees could be trained on the system far faster. Even though there were a small number of long term employees, they had high turnover with the frontline CSRs, which made training a major issue for them.

esafak 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The old TUIs were faster yet I still prefer IntelliJ; it's fast enough and much more powerful.

exe34 15 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Even normal windows applications used to be like this (outside of crashing). I could alt-tab, type stuff and click where I know a button would show before I even saw the application window. It never missed a key stroke or type into the wrong window. Nowadays you load a webpage and start typing, and half you text appears and then the other half just never shows up.

robenkleene 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> So many of those classic TUIs adopted WordStar’s sacred keystrokes.

What are the WordStar bindings and what do you like about them?

I have a general interest in the history of how these patterns emerge and what the benefits of them are relative to each other.

ninalanyon 12 hours ago | parent | next [-]

They are control key sequences that are arranged so that a typist need never remover their fingers from the keyboard. The control key was to the left of the A so easily pressed with you left little finger.

You had full control of the cursor without the need for dedicated arrow keys or page up and down keys. It worked on a normal terminal keyboard. I first used it on an Apple ][ with a Z80 add-on that ran CP/M.

robenkleene 11 hours ago | parent [-]

Thanks for sharing! I'd consider all those things true for Emacs/Vim bindings as well? (Just curious if you'd disagree with that assessment.)

disqard 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Sci-fi author Robert Sawyer (who has won Hugo and Nebula awards) is a big fan of Wordstar -- he uses it to write his books.

I highly recommend reading this:

https://www.sfwriter.com/wordstar.htm

GregorBrandt 12 hours ago | parent | next [-]

And a modern implementation can be found here: https://wordtsar.ca

robenkleene 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This useful, but it also seems like a very comparable feature set to editors like Emacs and Vim. So I'd still love to hear from someone who has the background to do a direct comparison, especially if they prefer WordStar.

mkovach 12 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Vim was never a steep learning curve for me; more of a gentle slope. But then again, I cut my teeth on ed, and when I met sed, it felt like a revelation. On DOS, I even used edlin, a kind of ed junior with training wheels and a sadistic sense of "functional."

You have to understand: my first DOS machine was a Tandy 1000, acquired before I had a driver’s license. It was upgraded over the years and not retired until the grunge was well underway and I had already been married and divorced.

MS-DOS’s edit had WordStar keybindings; Ctrl-S to move back, Ctrl-E to move up, and so on. My dad "brought" home a copy of WordStar from work, and oh, the things that trio, WordStar, me, and a dot matrix printer conspired to create.

Borland carried those keybindings into Turbo Pascal, which I learned in college, having finally escaped the Fortran 77 gulag that was my high school’s TRS-80 Model III/IV lab. The investment into the Apple II lab didn't happen until AFTER they gave me my exit papers at a spring awards ceremony.

Why do I still prefer these tools?

Because they’re what I know. They don’t get in my way. We have history, a better and longer history that I have with my first wife. Those keybinds helped me write my first sorting algorithms, my first papers on circuit design, and the cover letters that got me my first jobs. They’re not just efficient. They’re familiar. They’re home.

robenkleene 11 hours ago | parent [-]

Thanks for sharing! (And to be clear, that's totally a great reason!) I wasn't familiar with these bindings and was curious to hear more about them, both the history and the subjective preference for them are both interesting to me.

Narishma 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I've used all three and I think it's just a matter of what you're used to. I mostly use vi but have no problem switching to the other two schemes when needed. But maybe that's just me not having strong preferences. I know some people who have trouble switching from Chrome to Firefox and those are practically identical.

mbreese 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

So is George R.R. Martin.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26695017

manquer 10 hours ago | parent [-]

Not an example we want to cite for prowess of productivity with WordStar, given Martin's throughput as a writer in last couple of decades.

citbl 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What a wonderful write up and I feel the same.

I've been working on my free time on a tui code editor in the same vein eventually with make and lldb built in.

chuckadams 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There's a lot from Plan 9 I love, but I couldn't find Acme's mouse-dependent UI acceptable in the least. I can't deal with any UI that requires precise aim when I have to use it hour after hour, and I'd hate to imagine using it if I had an actual disability.

mkovach 12 hours ago | parent [-]

Most days, you’ll find me in sam, regexing my way to bliss like some monastic scribe with a terminal fetish. When I feel the urge to let AI stroke my curiosity or scaffold a long template like magic, I cut, paste, and drop it into a local or remote model like a well-trained familiar.

But I’ve also written larger applications and, frankly, a ridiculous amount of documentation in Acme. That 9P protocol was my backstage pass: every window, every label, was accessible and programmable. I could, for example, hook into a save event and automatically format, lint, and compile ten or fifteen years before most IDEs figured out how to fake that kind of integration.

Sure, the system demands precision. It doesn't coddle. But for me, that was the feature, not the bug. The rigor sharpened my thinking. It taught me to be exact or be silent, forcing me to pause when I usually would not.

skopje 14 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

djgpp + vi for dos in 1991 ftw!