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block_dagger 12 hours ago

When I read that analogy, I found it inept. Fire is a well defined physical process. Understanding / cognition is not necessarily physical and certainly not well defined.

sgt101 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

>Understanding / cognition is not necessarily physical and certainly not well defined.

Whooha! If it's not physical what is it? How does something that's not physical interact with the universe and how does the universe interact with it? Where does the energy come from and go? Why would that process not be a physical process like any other?

lxgr 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'd say understanding and cognition are at this point fully explainable mechanistically. (I am very excited to live in a time where I was able to change my mind on this!)

Where we haven't made any headway on is on the connection between that and subjective experience/qualia. I feel like much of the (in my mind) strange conclusions of the Chinese Room are about that and not really about "pure" cognition.

visarga 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Simulated fire would burn down simulated building

measurablefunc 9 hours ago | parent [-]

If everything is simulated then "simulated(x)" is a vacuous predicate & tells you nothing so you might as well throw it away & speak directly in terms of the objects instead of wrapping/prepending everything w/ "simulated".

pwdisswordfishy 6 hours ago | parent [-]

"Simulated" is not a predicate, but a modality.

lo_zamoyski 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That's debatable, but it is also irrelevant, as the key to the argument here is that computation is by definition an abstract and strictly syntactic construct - one that has no objective reality vis-a-vis the physical devices we use to simulate computation and call "computers" - while semantics or intentionality are essential to human intelligence. And no amount of syntax can somehow magically transmute into semantics.

vidarh 5 hours ago | parent [-]

This makes no sense. You could equally make the statement that thought is by definition an abstract and strictly syntactic construct - one that has no objective reality. Neither statement is supported by anything.

There's also no "magic" involved in transmuting syntax into semantics, merely a subjective observer applying semantics to it.

netdevphoenix 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Do you believe that there are things that are not physical? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. And no, "science can't explain x hence metaphysical" is not a valid response.

voidhorse 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

But that acknowledgement would itself lend Searle's argument credence because much of the brain = computer thesis depends on a fundamental premise that both brains and digital computers realize computation under the same physical constraints; the "physical substrate" doesn't matter (and that there is necessarily nothing special about biophysical systems beyond computational or resource complexity) (the same thinking by the way, leads to arguments that an abacus and a computer are essentially "the same"—really at root these are all fallacies of unwarranted/extremist abstraction/reductionism)

The history of the brain computer equation idea is fascinating and incredibly shaky. Basically a couple of cyberneticists posed a brain = computer analogy back in the 50s with wildly little justification and everyone just ran with it anyway and very few people (Searle is one of those few) have actually challenged it.

vidarh 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Unless you can show an example of how we can compute something that is not Turing computable, there is no justification for the inverse, as the inverse would require something in the brain to be capable of interactions that can not be simulated. And we've no evidence to suggest either that the brain can do something not Turing computable or of the presence of something in the brain that can't be simulated.

ozy 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Maybe consciousness is exactly like simulated fire. It does a lot inside the simulation, but is nothing on the outside.

lo_zamoyski 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> The history of the brain computer equation idea is fascinating and incredibly shaky. Basically a couple of cyberneticists posed a brain = computer analogy back in the 50s with wildly little justification and everyone just ran with it anyway and very few people (Searle is one of those few) have actually challenged it.

And something that often happens whenever some phenomenon falls under scientific investigation, like mechanical force or hydraulics or electricity or quantum mechanics or whatever.

jacquesm 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Roger Penrose would be another.

freejazz 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Isn't that besides the point? The point is that something would actually burn down.

wzdd 11 hours ago | parent | next [-]

GP's point is that buring something down is by definition something that requires a specific physical process. It's not obvious that thinking is the same. So when someone says something like "just as a simulation of fire isn't the same as an actual fire (in a very important way!), a simulation of thinking isn't the same as actual thinking" they're arguing circularly, having already accepted their conclusion that both acts necessarily require a specific physical process. Daniel Dennett called this sort of argument an "intuition pump", which relies on a misleading but intuitive analogy to get you to accept an otherwise-difficult-to-prove conclusion.

To be fair to Searle, I don't think he advanced this as an agument, but more of an illustration of his belief that thinking was indeed a physical process specific to brains.

measurablefunc 9 hours ago | parent [-]

He explains it in the original paper¹ & says in no uncertain terms that he believes the brain is a machine & minds are implementable on machines. What he is actually arguing is that substrate independent digital computation will never be a sufficient explanation for conscious experience. He says that brains are proof that consciousness is physical & mechanical but not digital. Searle is not against the computationalist hypothesis of minds, he admits that there is nothing special about minds in terms of physical processes but he doesn't reduce everything to substrate independent digital computation & conclude that minds are just software running on brains. There are a bunch of subtle distinctions that people miss when they try to refute Searle's argument.

¹https://home.csulb.edu/~cwallis/382/readings/482/searle.mind...

Zarathruster 7 hours ago | parent [-]

Quick definitional help for anyone who clicks on your link: the term "intentionality" in this context has a specialized meaning. In reference to mental states, it's the property of being about something, as in, "Alice is thinking about Bob." It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with intent, per se.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/consciousness-intentional...

anigbrowl 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

https://home.sandiego.edu/~baber/analytic/Lem1979.html