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bilekas 2 days ago

> Health care has been a focus of the financiers because it accounts for 18% of gross domestic product in the United States.

This seems extremely high.. Ireland with free public healthcare for example is ~6%.. I think the largest in Europe, by a lot, is Germany? ~13%.

mercutio2 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

People assert all sorts of nonsense in response to questions like this, usually not at all backed up by the data. The drivers of high US healthcare costs are:

  1. Doctors, nurses, and hospital admins make dramatically, *dramatically* more money in the US than anywhere except Switzerland. Every time a discussion of healthcare costs comes up, everyone tries to point their fingers at middlemen, but the middlemen extract tiny fractions of the revenue stream. Most of it goes to actual humans that are high status, and no one wants to imply they’re lobbying to lower the pay of these folks

  2. The US pays for drug development for the entire world. You can call this the US “overpaying”, or the rest of the world “free-loading”, but the US is a very rich country that has decided to incentivize drug development by allowing drug companies to profit from their massive investments by setting high prices

  3. Americans are fatter than the rest of the rich world (although the rest of the rich world is rapidly catching up) and chronic metabolic-disease is very expensive to treat (everywhere)
All the other factors are noise. Insurance companies extract a few percent, bureaucratic overhead extracts a few more percent. But to get to 100% more, these just don’t matter.
dcre 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Worth noting in this context that the scarcity of doctors is artificial, due to a low cap on the number of federally funded residencies. We could also let more doctors immigrate. My understanding is we make immigrant doctors go through a lot of hoops to validate their foreign training.

https://thedailyeconomy.org/article/how-congress-created-the...

paxys 2 days ago | parent [-]

For the last few decades the only way to find enough doctors willing to work in rural areas in America has been through H-1B. With the funding cuts in the "Big Beautiful Bill" and upcoming $100K visa fee a large chunk of Americans are going to find their quality of healthcare deteriorate very rapidly.

DangitBobby 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

"A few percent."

> There are no official data on their total size, but estimates extrapolated from micro-costing studies suggest that billing and insurance-related services alone comprise about 15 percent of health care spending, and total administrative costs may comprise about 30 percent.

1. https://econofact.org/how-large-a-burden-are-administrative-...?

GoatInGrey 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

re: your third point. Americans drive frequently and walk infrequently. It's the same reason why Canada and Australia have similar rates of obesity despite having vastly different approaches to healthcare.

looperhacks 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'm not going to bother fact checking a random comment without any sources, but regarding your second point: do you think "the rest of the world" gets drugs for free?

ludicrousdispla 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

anecdotally, my cost (without insurance) for a prescription medication (for a family member) in Austria was less than my copay for the same medication with insurance (BC/BS) in the US.

It's not free, but it's shockingly less expensive, and there are cheaper countries in the EU than Austria.

GoatInGrey 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

It's not for free, though low enough to where no biotech company would make a profit on new therapies at the current R&D spend if the US paid the same rates that everyone else is paying today. This goes for firms on any continent, and a large part of why FDA approval is such a big deal for the international medical enterprise.

We could trade reduced innovation for lower prices, but that's a difficult ethical debate to settle given the prevalence of medical suffering from lack of effective therapies.

The solution I personally petition for is looking for ways to make drug development more affordable across the board.

magicalist a day ago | parent [-]

> It's not for free, though low enough to where no biotech company would make a profit on new therapies at the current R&D spend if the US paid the same rates that everyone else is paying today.

Where are all the anti-taxes people on this apparent involuntary charity for the pharmaceutical industry?

paxys 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Some of this may be correct but writing off administrative overhead as negligible is laughable.

Insurance companies spend a maximum of 80-85% of collected premiums on healthcare, and only because this is regulated by law, otherwise it would be even less.

On the other side hospitals, clinics and private practitioners all have dedicated departments and staff whose only job is to deal with billing and negotiations with insurance providers. That also costs a hell of a lot more than a couple percent.

So just adding up these two there's 15-30% of medical expenditure that isn't going towards actual care, just overhead. Recover this cost and the US will immediately fall in line with how much the rest of the developed world spends on healthcare, even with the high doctors salaries and drug costs.

jimt1234 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> ...bureaucratic overhead extracts a few more percent.

Respectfully, my perception contradicts this. My GF has been a psychologist for 25 years. For the first half of her career, funding for her work was provided exclusively by a state program (California), but about 10 years ago, the funding transitioned mostly to private health insurance. And it's been a bureaucratic nightmare every since. She had to hire a skilled/well-paid FTE just to manage the billing with the private health insurance companies. And it's still a nightmare to deal with. So yeah, to downplay the "bureaucratic overhead" of private insurance, is not universally accurate, IMHO. Maybe for big hospitals, it represents a small percentage of overheard, but not for smaller providers.

twoodfin 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is one of those comments that make me wish hn gave out a daily use “super upvote”.

I’d only extend that point 2 is true for many cutting-edge treatments beyond simply drug development & is tied to point 1: If you pay doctors top-flight salaries, you get a lot of smart, innovative doctors pushing (at great cost) into the future of medicine.

Similar story with admins working to make care more efficient and also humane, data science teams (yes, big research and academic hospitals have these in spades!) …

America is rich and wants to spend that on medicine. It’s not a conspiracy of oligarchs.

2 days ago | parent | prev [-]
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ajmurmann 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There are definitely things in the system that drive prices up (like lack of competition (see CON) and middle men). However, a big reason you see this high cost and difference between countries is Baumol cost disease. Productivity and salaries in the US are very high. Meanwhile healthcare, like education for example, has seen very low productivity improvements. This leads to an ever increasing price. It's unintuitive because the healthcare workers didn't get more productive. However, they could be more productive elsewhere, so comp needs to go up to stay competitive with other options available to the workers. One might argue that nurses for example still earn very little, given how hard and important their work is but that's precisely what you'd see in areas affected by Baumol. The comp only gets dragged up to keep people from quitting or striking. There is little to no competition for something like a "10x nurse" because that's not a thing and the industry struggles to keep justifying their high prices while TV prices keep dropping and dropping and cellphones keep getting more impressive.

xtracto 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The problem is that it's an inelastic market. So sellers can basically charge WHATEVER they want, constrained only to the line where people will revolt. But that's a very high line in the US.

Health providing shouldn't be a for-profit endeavor. Certainly shouldn't be in the stock market and it absolutely shouldn't be comingled with "insurance"

ajmurmann 2 days ago | parent [-]

> The problem is that it's an inelastic market. So sellers can basically charge WHATEVER they want, constrained only to the line where people will revolt.

What keeps me from bringing my business too the competition like I do in every other market? The main constraint I see right now is that there are very few, but large hospitals and my insurance only pays for me to go to even fewer of those. However, competition already works (if the patient makes an effort) for some planned procedures like CT scans where you can safe up to 80% in my own experience.

parpfish 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

It’s hard to compete on price when your customers don’t know any of the prices up front.

ajmurmann 2 days ago | parent [-]

Definitely true. However, it's not intrinsic to healthcare. We made it that way. You can go to https://surgerycenterok.com/ and see all-inclusive prices for surgeries right now. Some people fly there for procedures. They have higher success rates than competitors, surgeons take more money home and the procedures cost less. It's possible.

EasyMark 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Maybe they're referring to the way the system is set up. You're probably not going to shop around for the lowest cost heart surgeon unless you have no insurance. Will they even say how much they charge? Couple that with emergencies. I think the only hope for America is a movement to stop a lot of this stuff before they become issues. Early diagnosis of cancer, national movement to unfat America (whatever that mean), people feeling more responsible for their own health inasmuch as they can.

ajmurmann 2 days ago | parent [-]

Availability of prices is definitely an issue. Many, many things aren't emergencies though and arguably many of the expensive ones aren't (cancer treatment, many great procedures once stabilized). My wife used to work on healthcare and has helped friends and family shop around for cancer treatment and heart surgery. However, due to the lack of price transparency this was limited to shopping for quality. We could totally change that though. See the surgery center of Oklahoma website I've linked in several comments

nemomarx 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Getting approval to build a new hospital seems to require regulatory stuff and how do you get the staff if there's a cap on how many doctors can be trained a year?

ajmurmann 2 days ago | parent [-]

I am not saying we have a functioning or free market right now. I am arguing that competition can bring down prices if we allow it to.

nemomarx 2 days ago | parent [-]

Just noting the other constraints on it like the AMA

Aunche 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Part of it is that Americans consume a lot more healthcare than other countries. They take more medication. They take more cutting edge medication (e.g. it's rare GLP-1 agonists to be used for weight loss outside the US). They see more therapists and chiropractors. They are more likely to stay in private hospital rooms.

Much of this is heavily subsidized by insurance. Any drastic change in the status quo would inevitably cause pricing and coverage that people are used to be adjusted, which is why they say they want healthcare reform until it actually happens.

dragonwriter 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

US healthcare expenditures are ludicrously high, because the US healthcare “system” is ludicrously inefficient by global standards.

US public healthcare expenditures are similar to what some developed countries with fully public universal healthcare have—and the private expenditures on top are more than the public costs.

People sometimes joke about the US having gaps in healthcare because of defense or other spending, but the fact is the US effectively pays vast amounts of money to create those gaps, rather than having them because of some resource constraints.

slfnflctd 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There is a lot of skimming at multiple levels. Far too many middle layers and gatekeepers, constantly haggling and looking for more ways to profit. Continuous market consolidation to fewer players looking to exploit economies of scale over decades. Perverse incentives everywhere.

There are still people trying to behave ethically within this framework, but it's hard when the framework itself is so corrupted by profit motives which should never have been there in the first place. Direct providers should be running the show, not financiers. They need to be aware of how to balance the books within reason and be paid properly, but beyond that it should be much more patient focused. We definitely don't need so many profit-taking leeches in all the places we have them now.

EasyMark 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's not high considering how much more it costs to get medical care in the USA and the poor efforts by insurance companies and health care in general for pre-emptive care, also US in general is not as healthy as the other Western Nations, where that fault lies I'm not sure (self or general availability of care).

MattGaiser 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Fun fact: Public healthcare spending in the USA is at about 7% of GDP between Medicare, Medicaid, and military healthcare. The US governments spend more on healthcare as a percentage of GDP than many countries spend giving it to everyone.

bilekas 2 days ago | parent [-]

> The US governments spend more on healthcare as a percentage of GDP than many countries spend giving it to everyone

Is this a product of inflated prices ? Or is this research funding for example ? I'm curious what the complete definition for Healthcare spending actually is.

lotsofpulp 2 days ago | parent [-]

Research funding is a rounding error.

https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/americas-finance-guide/feder...

$965B is Medicare - healthcare for old people

$885B is Health (aka Medicaid) - healthcare for poor people

$360B Veterans Benefits and Services - at least half of this is healthcare for active and retired military (subset of federal government employees)

The healthcare for non military federal government employees is not included in the above amounts, nor is the state government and lower government level spending on healthcare for employees.

Combine the above numbers with $1.45T in Social Security (cash given to old people), and all other US federal government expenses pale in comparison to wealth transfers to old and sick people.