Maybe it's also the other way around: if Firefox was legitimate competition, Google wouldn't "fund" them (quotes because really, google is also just buying user traffic with their investment).

Is Google actively sabotaging Mozilla or is Mozilla a genuine competitor that just hasn't figured out how to build a browser that'll actually challenge Chrome (and Chromiumy browsers) beyond ideologist users?

I say it's the latter. Google's money doesn't actually negatively impact Firefox's competitiveness.

▲

theK 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I dont see how the competitiveness argument can still stand. I've been using both browsers for the better part of two decades now and chrome/chromium never was the better product. Sure it had slightly better devtools for a while but nowadays it is very difficult to argue either way. Performance was rubbish on both ends for years in a row, right now both seem to do fine. Firefox has sync, a significantly better product than whatever google comes up with every two years. So yeah, I think Mozilla has a good enough product to challenge chrome. What they don't have is comparable traffic to their site.

Oh and of course focus. Mozilla has lacked focus for almost a decade now with all the random products and initiatives they launch.

▲

rkomorn 6 hours ago | parent [-]

As someone who almost compulsively changes browsers every so often with the mistaken belief that "there's gotta be something better" and has swung by Firefox on multiple occasions, it has never offered me any compelling reason to stick with it beyond not being Chrome.

Zen came close, but also didn't stick.

Containers seemed nice at first but my personal usage of them devolved into an over abundance of containers to isolate everything from one another (my fault, though).

On the other hand, I've had various small nits here and there that always eventually push me back towards a chromium browser.

But hey, I'm a believer in not holding on to my decisions so long that they become assumptions, so off I go to install Firefox and give it a 4th whirl since 2010.

▲

dotancohen 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Try Tree Style Tabs.

That's gotten me married to Firefox. The hierarchical vertical tab management makes research and general web browsing far more efficient and productive. It also helps me know which tabs I can close when I'm done.

	▲	rkomorn 2 hours ago \| parent [-]
		I did. TBH, it did not do much for me, but I'm pretty sure the problem is me. I've tried all kinds of tab management things (they're usually a motivation for trying a new browser that supposedly offers a better way) and nothing ever sticks out for me.

▲

pjmlp 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Unfortunely most people have decided it isn't worthwhile to buy software, including those whose job depends on selling software.

▲

rkomorn 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Are you saying that, because people don't want to buy browsers, the end result is we only get the ones that can be financed by companies that sell other things (which in this day and age is ads, with only a few exceptions)?

I'd agree. Although I'd also add: people don't want to sell software anymore, they want to sell subscriptions, and I personally do not have much desire to pay $10/month for a browser (and then get pitched more services to buy on top, no doubt).

▲

swiftcoder 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The subscription thing is key, although maybe a generational thing. I would happily pay a flat $60-100 for each major version upgrade I choose to adopt, but I won't just give them a direct monthly tap into my bank account.

▲

godelski 5 hours ago | parent [-]

So do you donate that amount every major release?

	▲	rkomorn 2 hours ago \| parent \| next [-]
		I think asking people if they're one of a small of handful people donating into the void to a is a straw man.
	▲	swiftcoder 3 hours ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		It's purely a theoretical, since nobody has offered me a choice of that model - either I'm a source of ad revenue whether I want to be or not (Chrome, FireFox, Safari), or I'm in a captive ecosystem where I'm already paying a premium (Safari, Chrome for android)

▲

pjmlp 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Because unfortunelly subscriptions is the only way to make people pay that would otherwise pirate, it is the modern version of using hardware keys.

▲

troupo 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Is Google actively sabotaging Mozilla

Oh, Google did sabotage Mozilla: https://archive.is/2019.04.15-165942/https://twitter.com/joh...

▲

pessimizer 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> is Mozilla a genuine competitor that just hasn't figured out how to build a browser that'll actually challenge Chrome

Mozilla had a browser that had huge market share and was growing, and actively destroyed it for the sake of Chrome, at the same time as they became a financial dependent of google.

> google is also just buying user traffic with their investment

Google is not buying user traffic from a browser with a 3% share and falling. Google is probably responsible for 2-300% of firefox's profits, because if they stopped paying them off, they'd have to close up shop in 6 months. Everything else they do is a failure, and if it looks like it has a chance of being successful, like Servo and Rust*, they get rid of it.

They're not going to give them money to them with a check with "Bribe to fail continually, and to never give users a feature that they would leave Chrome for ever again" written on it. Money is fungible. If they couldn't bribe them like this, they'd create an "Extensions Interop Consortium," let Mozilla host it, and fund it to the tune of a half-billion dollars. Let Google prove this "partnership" is profitable, this default search engine placement on the 3% browser used exclusively by people who are experts, know how to change their defaults, and hate google. It doesn't pass the stupid test.

But actually, they don't have to prove anything because even though they're officially a monopoly, one of the worst of the many horrible, horrible Obama judges has now affirmed that there will be no remedy, because a remedy might affect their business. He then immediately went on tour, telling audiences how the government is bullying tech companies.

[*] And maybe firefoxOS, I accidentally had one as my daily phone for a year, and it worked fine. I didn't love it and I didn't even like the idea of it, but it certainly worked.

	▲	rkomorn 43 minutes ago \| parent [-]
		I'm not saying Google's funding of Mozilla isn't entirely self serving. I think it is. I just don't think Google's funding of Mozilla is what's actually holding Mozilla back.