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Mistletoe 14 hours ago

How will you fight the inevitable slide that happens if you ever got on top? I’m convinced Google started with the absolute best of intentions before the money and greed turned them into a horror movie villain.

junipertea 14 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Maybe another company will take over at time. Why does one company have to stay perfect and on top of game for eternity?

ocdtrekkie 14 hours ago | parent [-]

I love many of the companies I use and work with... but I'm always on the lookout for a backup plan if one gets greedy. Companies are not loyal to their consumers, we should never make the mistake of providing loyalty to corporations.

Kagi is great though, for now! :D

MostlyStable 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Since they are subscription based and not ad based, their incentives are inherently aligned with customer preferences. This doesn't mean that they are immune from getting worse, or just becoming complacent, but it does at least make it less likely. Ad-supported companies succumbing to enshittification is virtually guaranteed thanks to the misalignment of basic incentives between the company and users (note: not customers).

sehansen 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Exactly this. There's no guarantee Kagi will never get worse, but it will become worse in a different way than Google has since Kagi isn't ad supported.

chuckadams 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

"If the service is free, you are the product."

cyborgrising 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Observationally, Google search and Kagi are fundamentally different business models.

Google followed/trailblazed the "enshitification" arc of providing a free service that sees widespread adoption by the public, and then financially exploiting the widespread adoption by leveraging usage of the service to serve ads like in the screenshot.

Kagi is a subscription service you pay for and they generate their best effort at an ideal service for you using the money you gave them.

The Google model of providing a free service sort of requires that it be enshitified in order to close the circle on the business case. Reliance on VC money in this model is likely a further aggravating factor to aggressively exploit usage of the service once widespread adoption is achieved.

The Kagi model has an opposite pressure, where if it tries to exploit adoption of the service in a way that users don't appreciate, users will simply abandon their subscription, putting a core revenue stream the business has built itself around at risk.

Is it possible for Kagi or a business like that to become shitty? Sure, a new manager that misunderstands core realities can show up anywhere and ruin the business, or sagging business financials could require VC injection which then pressures further financial extractions from uses. But the structural pressures on a Kagi-style model certainly seem to steer it in the right direction when Google's structural model invariably steered it into something that becomes less pleasant than we all initially knew.

stinkbeetle 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's really us who have to change our mindset about companies. It's foolish to expect them to retain the quality or purported ideology they claimed to have when they were trying to win customers, after they reach a point where they can exploit and extract money and suppress choice and competition. A CEO will say anything now and might even mean it, but it's empty words really, and not even their choice in the long run.

We have to not get attached to companies, and not get the idea that they care or have feelings of good or evil. They are tools, like a hammer, or a stapler. A stapler isn't evil if it mashes up all the staples into a tangled mess. It's just broken. You don't mourn a broken stapler, eventually tools just wear out. You throw it out and get a new one. Corporations are the same, McKinsification / enshitification / etc are a part of their natural lifecycle, you should expect that and just switch to a different tool that actually works.

IgorPartola 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Kagi is unlikely to ever be as popular as Google. Free is always more popular.

chairmansteve 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

"How will you fight the inevitable slide that happens if you ever got on top?".

Don't get too greedy. There must be examples... 37Signals?

d4mi3n 14 hours ago | parent | next [-]

"Don't get greedy" and similar variations assumes intent rather than what I see as the reality of how companies operate within the US--not a failing of individual virtues. If you're a public company, your shareholders will want stock prices to go up and are more than happy to use their shares to vote for whoever is willing to make that happen.

This is, of course, an exaggeration. Not all shareholders value profits above all else, but many big ones do. Ignoring what incentives (and disincentives) are put on a business drive it's behavior. If you want something contrary to those incentives, you need to change those pressures or you're doomed to be disappointed.

extraduder_ire 11 hours ago | parent [-]

Is there a minimum percentage of voting stock you have to issue in US law? IIRC, google is split in half into voting and non-voting shares with a clause in their incorporation to buy back shares to keep their prices roughly equal.

sehansen 5 hours ago | parent [-]

There isn't. Snapchat went public by issuing only non-voting shares to the open market.

hatthew 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Valve is arguably a good example

chuckadams 12 hours ago | parent [-]

Valve is also of course a privately held company.

justinclift 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Maybe B corporations?

wiether 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Outside of the tech world, Unilever is one of the worst mega-companies in basically everything they do.

Yet, their ANZ branch is certified since 2022: https://www.bcorporation.net/en-us/find-a-b-corp/company/uni...

B Corp enshitified itself, trying to get bigger, instead of staying true to its (supposed) mission

14 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
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