No one in Big Tech decides what you are allowed to say, they can only withhold their distribution of what you say.

As a book publisher, should I be required to publish your furry smut short stories? Of course not. Is that infringing on your freedom of speech? Of course not.

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AfterHIA 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

If the furry smut people became the dominant force in literature and your company was driven out of business fairly for not producing enough furry smut would that too constitute censorship?

I want to see how steep this hill you're willing to die on is. What's that old saying-- that thing about the shoe being on the other foot?

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mitthrowaway2 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

No, they ban your account and exclude you from the market commons if they don't like what you say.

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mulmen 10 hours ago | parent [-]

Yes that’s how free markets work. Your idea has to be free to die in obscurity.

Compelled speech is not free speech. You have no right to an audience. The existence of a wide distribution platform does not grant you a right to it.

These arguments fall completely flat because it’s always about the right to distribute misinformation. It’s never about posting porn or war crimes or spam. That kind of curation isn’t contentious.

Google didn’t suddenly see the light and become free speech absolutists. They caved to political pressure and are selectively allowing the preferred misinformation of the current administration.

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int_19h 10 hours ago | parent | next [-]

A market that has companies with the size - or rather, the market dominance - of the likes of Google is not meaningfully a free market. The fundamental problem isn't whether Google censors or not, nor what it censors, but the very fact that its decision on this matter is so impactful.

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mulmen 8 hours ago | parent [-]

If you want to debate anti trust and regulation then let’s do it. Google’s dominance is bad for our society, culture, and our economy but it’s not a reason to erode our fundamental rights. Compelling free speech will do nothing to erode Google’s market share or encourage competition. In fact it will further entrench Google’s dominance.

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int_19h 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

You're right, but freedom of speech is also a valid angle from which to debate antitrust and regulation. Indeed, I don't want Google to be compelled to platform others - I want platforms that large to not exist in the first place. But pointing out that censorship by big tech megacorps has very real and very negative effects that can be comparable to outright government censorship in some cases is a part of that fight.

	▲	mulmen 3 hours ago \| parent [-]
		> You're right, but freedom of speech is also a valid angle from which to debate antitrust and regulation. The effect of YouTube’s content moderation size on speech is a symptom of weak antitrust policy, not of free expression. So sure, mention the effect on speech if you want but don’t ignore the solution.

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Dylan16807 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

How is compelling google to censor less going to entrench their dominance? If it's purely by making them suck less, I'm okay with that risk.

And I don't think it erodes any fundamental rights to put restrictions on huge monopolies.

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mulmen 6 hours ago | parent [-]

> How is compelling google to censor less going to entrench their dominance?

If you force Google alone to amplify certain speech then what competitive advantage does a less censorious service provide?

> If it's purely by making them suck less, I'm okay with that risk.

Define “suck less”. Now ask yourself if you are comfortable with someone you completely disagree with defining what sucks less.

> And I don't think it erodes any fundamental rights to put restrictions on huge monopolies.

You’re talking about antitrust, not free expression.

Compelled speech is an erosion of the first amendment. You may think that erosion is acceptable but you can’t deny it exists.

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Dylan16807 5 hours ago | parent [-]

> If you force Google alone to amplify certain speech then what competitive advantage does a less censorious service provide?

If that's the only "advantage" another service has, I don't care if it has no competitive advantage. If it offers anything else then that's the advantage.

Seriously this idea is super weird to me. There are plenty of reasons to avoid too much regulation. But "don't force company X to make their users happier because happy users won't leave" is a terrible reason.

>Define “suck less”. Now ask yourself if you are comfortable with someone you completely disagree with defining what sucks less.

A big part of the "if" is that people are making their own evaluations.

> You’re talking about antitrust

I am not talking about antitrust. I'm saying that the bigger and more powerful a corporation gets the further it is from a human and human rights.

> Compelled speech is an erosion of the first amendment. You may think that erosion is acceptable but you can’t deny it exists.

In this case, barely at all, and it's the same one we already have for common carriers.

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mulmen 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> If that's the only "advantage" another service has, I don't care if it has no competitive advantage. If it offers anything else then that's the advantage.

The value proposition of a less censorious YouTube alternative is exactly that it is less censorious. You’re seemingly arguing against free markets.

> Seriously this idea is super weird to me. There are plenty of reasons to avoid too much regulation. But "don't force company X to make their users happier because happy users won't leave" is a terrible reason.

The problem with compelled speech is that the government should not be in the business of deciding what kind of speech makes people happy.

> A big part of the "if" is that people are making their own evaluations.

People should have the freedom to choose the media they consume. Compelled speech takes that choice away from them by putting the government in the position of making that decision for the people. This distorts the marketplace of ideas.

I don’t have time to read every comment or email or watch every video. Private content moderation is a value add and a form of expression. We need competition in that space, not government restriction.

> I am not talking about antitrust. I'm saying that the bigger and more powerful a corporation gets the further it is from a human and human rights.

If your problem with Google is how much influence they have then yes, you are talking about antitrust. That’s the regulatory mechanism by which excessive corporate influence can be restricted.

> In this case, barely at all, and it's the same one we already have for common carriers.

“A little” is still more than nothing which was your previous assertion. You may be comfortable with the rising temperature of our shared pot of water but I say it is a cause for concern.

	▲	Dylan16807 8 minutes ago \| parent [-]
		> You’re seemingly arguing against free markets. You're only talking about the people that like a feature. Why do you need a free market for that if every company can do it? Not everything has to be a free market. There are reasons to use competition but not this reason. > the government should not be in the business of deciding what kind of speech makes people happy I did not say or intentionally imply they should. > People should have the freedom to choose the media they consume. Compelled speech takes that choice away Not if the compelling is just that they can't ban content. That only adds choice. > If your problem with Google is how much influence they have then yes, you are talking about antitrust. That’s the regulatory mechanism by which excessive corporate influence can be restricted. There can be other mechanisms, and more importantly my argument there isn't about mechanisms. They are barely barely humanlike, so human rights are barely barely relevant. > “A little” is still more than nothing which was your previous assertion. You may be comfortable with the rising temperature of our shared pot of water but I say it is a cause for concern. It's barely any increase because we already have common carrier rules. And I stand by the statement that it doesn't erode fundamental rights. The right of giant corporations to have free speech is at the edge, not fundamental. And a rule like that increases the free speech of so many actual humans.

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5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[deleted]

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themaninthedark 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Just to split hairs here, as I do not think that a company should be forced to host content.

Hosting content is not giving someone an audience.

If I take my stool into the main square and stand on it, giving a speech about the evils of canned spinach. People pass by but no-one stops and listens(or not for long), I did not have an audience.

If I record the same thing and put it up on Youtube and the same reaction happens. I only get 5~10 views, Youtube is not giving me an audience. They are hosting the video, just like they do for many other videos that are uploaded everyday.

If Youtube suddenly starts pushing my video onto everyone's "Home", "Recommended " or whatever; then that would be them giving me an audience.

If the Big Spinach Canners find my video and ask Youtube to take it down, that is censorship.

	▲	mulmen 3 hours ago \| parent [-]
		> Hosting content is not giving someone an audience. Yes, it is. > If I take my stool into the main square and stand on it, giving a speech about the evils of canned spinach. People pass by but no-one stops and listens(or not for long), I did not have an audience. Well, yes, you did. They are free to cheer, boo, or leave. YouTube is more like an open mic night. I reject the idea that it is a public space like a main square. > If I record the same thing and put it up on Youtube and the same reaction happens. I only get 5~10 views, Youtube is not giving me an audience. They are hosting the video, just like they do for many other videos that are uploaded everyday. I am lucky to have never worked in content moderation but I’m certain YouTube refuses or removes submissions every day. So while your spinach speech may survive there are many other videos that don’t. > If Youtube suddenly starts pushing my video onto everyone's "Home", "Recommended " or whatever; then that would be them giving me an audience. Being on YouTube at all is YouTube giving you an audience. Their recommendation algorithm is the value proposition of their product to consumers whose attention is the product sold to advertisers. > If the Big Spinach Canners find my video and ask Youtube to take it down, that is censorship. Perhaps in the strictest dictionary sense it is censorship but it is not censorship in a first amendment sense. This is a private business decision. You’re free to submit your video as an ad and pay Google directly for eyeballs. And they can still say no. The only problem here is the size of YouTube relative to competitors. The fix there is antitrust, not erosion of civil liberties. Consider the landscape that evolves in a post-YouTube environment with an eroded first amendment and without section 230 protections. Those protections are critical for innovation and free expression.