| ▲ | Traster 3 days ago |
| I don't like this line of reasoning because it's largely just crystalizing a loss. We have this in the UK - houses of multiple occupancy. It's a great idea where you take a home that in the 1980s would house a family and split it into 5 flats where each person can rent 10-20 square metres each. I would much rather someone did something to address the fact that the average family in the UK can afford roughly 1/5th the amount of housing they could in the 1980s. And of course, because of this arbitrage now a family that wants to live in that home is competing with the rental income of 5+ tenants in a HMO. Surely, the correct solution is just to put in some simple rules to bring the cost of housing down. For example: planning restrictions are suspended until the average family home hits 3x average family income. Rather than just packing us like sardines into ever more expensive houses. |
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| ▲ | tormeh 3 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| Voters don't actually want house prices to come down. Voters, in aggregate, want rents to fall and prices to rise, roughly divided by renters vs owners. Somehow the homeowners almost always win against the renters in this political tug-of-war. Perhaps because rents are downstream of values, and so it's politically easier for owners to make the correct choices to advance their agenda than it is for renters, which have an extra logical leap required of them. |
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| ▲ | 2THFairy 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > Somehow the homeowners almost always win against the renters in this political tug-of-war. Demographics. Homeowners skew old, which gives them a bunch of advantages in enacting their political power. Higher turnout, baby boom giving them numerical superiority, and the time advantage of being able to enact policy decades ago. In the US, this is supplemented by matters of race, where because of past redlining policies, "pro-homeowner" policy (esp. suburban single-family-homes) in the last half-century has been a way to primarily benefit white people. | | |
| ▲ | potato3732842 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | You're forgetting the most important one. Having a bunch of your money tied up in an illiquid asset that is subject to all manner of government micromanagement gives you a huge incentive to see to it that the government doesn't get progressively more shitty toward you than it already is. | | |
| ▲ | Spivak 3 days ago | parent [-] | | Yep, saying it's an age thing is missing that every homeowner is directly financially incentivized to ensure prices go up. I literally get physical printed mail (against my
will) every other week telling me about the health of my neighborhood where higher home sale prices means better. Being older makes a person more likely to be homeowner, they got the causation backwards. | | |
| ▲ | 2THFairy 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > Being older makes a person more likely to be homeowner, they got the causation backwards. No. Being a homeowner doesn't grant one political influence. Being old grants one political influence. It's the correlation of age and homeownership that means homeowners have the political influence the push through policy that drives up real estate prices. Non-homeowners have political incentives all the same. If only just to oppose those very homeowners' policies. What they lack is the political influence to make it happen. |
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| ▲ | 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | zer00eyz 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Voters don't actually want house prices to come down. You have this wrong. > Somehow the homeowners almost always win against the renters First lets look at homeownership rates: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/RSAHORUSQ156S Home ownership is a functionally unmovable number staying around 63% Home owners are in the majority. Do you know what one of the biggest predictors of voting is? It is home ownership and local elections with zoning issues (or things that might impact home values) will drive turn out: https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/insights/if-you-lived-here-you-... Meanwhile to the original article, 80s TV like Golden Girls (shared housing) and Boosom Buddies (boarding houses) are quaint historic notes, the reality is that our use of housing stock has made the problem of where to live worse: https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2023/06/more-than-a-q... When you dig down into the data, the article is highlighting a real problem. We have destroyed a lot of historical co-habitation that kept the system working and healthy. We did this with zoning (getting rid of high density to prop up home values) banning types of housing (dense single room, affordable) and making other types impossible (owning a home and renting a room or two, people dont do this because of tenants rights issues). | | |
| ▲ | standardUser 3 days ago | parent [-] | | > Voters don't actually want house prices to come down.
>> You have this wrong. But you don't refute this, if anything you make the case that, since the majority are homeowners, they would of course want ever-increasing home values. And it's common knowledge that homeowners assume/depend on rising values as part of their purchasing decision. | | |
| ▲ | zer00eyz 3 days ago | parent [-] | | > But you don't refute this, The 66 percent turn out rate is not that high period. https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2025/06/26/voter-turnou... If non voting renters showed up, this could easily swing the other way. Renters are (generally) unmotivated to change their destiny at the voting booth. > And it's common knowledge that homeowners assume/depend on rising values as part of their purchasing decision. This is far far far more complicated than it looks. Because what is inflation vs increase in value after adjustment. There are plenty of places where housing has gone down in value (see Detroit, see Camden NJ). There are plenty of places where gentrification has changed whole regions (see the SF Bay Area). There has also been a massive change in what we build (smaller homes, vs McMansions). When you dig into the WHY of this, the destruction of old stock is a huge part of it (see Detroit). Massive changes to what and how we build (back to home owners and zoning) limiting growth in areas. Over regulation (see slow rebuilding in southern CA after fires, and the whole housing shortage here). NOTE: the ADU law that was an attempt to let home owners fix this themselves has been somewhat of a flop... however it is gaining momentum. The fixes to housing in the US require voters to pass something where only a bit more than half of it would be "good" for them and in a hard to explain way. It is easy to get them to vote such a policy down when the 40 percent that might impact them makes for a clear cut argument for a NO. |
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| ▲ | jlokier 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Voters, in aggregate, want rents to fall and prices to rise, roughly divided by renters vs owners I assure you, a lot of people in the UK want house prices to fall too. There are too many renters who don't want to be renting, and the proportion is increasing. They wish they could buy instead, but can't either because of price, inability to save enough for a down-payment as fast as prices rise (while large rent rises impede their saving or even drain it, and incomes rise more slowly than prices), or inability to obtain a mortgage despite a history of consistently paying more than a mortgage in rent. For the latter category, who can afford a mortgage but can't get one, and are already paying more in rent, their main problem isn't income or price, it's the tighter restrictions on mortgage availability since the 2008 financial crises. But they would still like lower prices. | |
| ▲ | bpt3 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Most people in the US live in a home owned by themselves or a member of their immediate family. On top of that, more of those people vote than the renters in their area. There's not really much more to it than that. | |
| ▲ | tovej 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Somehow? Homeowners are obviously the more powerful group, and real estate ownership in the bigger picture is tied to even more powerful entities (big companies, banks, billionaires). How many in the top 10% of the wealth distribution do you think are renters?
How many in the bottom 20% do you think are homeowners? |
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| ▲ | cjs_ac 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| In the 1970s, it was usual for working class newlyweds would have to live with their parents until they were able to find housing. That's why second-rate comedians of the time like Les Dawson had so many mother-in-law jokes: there was an awful lot of resentment between young men and their mothers-in-law to exploit. There's nothing new about multiple families crowding into houses designed for just one family in this country - that's why there are so many pubs. The Town and Country Planning Act 1947 has been identified as a cause of insufficient housebuilding activity, and new legislation is currently working its way through the House of Lords to alleviate this. |
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| ▲ | owlbite 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | In the UK specifically the radical reform (read destruction) of council housing by the Thatcher government had a large impact on the housing market in the 1980s. | |
| ▲ | Ntrails 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Afaict Housebuilding will not improve based on current legislatory changes, not even close. Until you murder land value capture nothing will change. | |
| ▲ | mothballed 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | In 1970 you could basically buy any non-city plot of land and build a shack on it without anyone bothering you. Think of the back to the land hippies in California just chopping down trees and starting their little communes -- they'd be utterly fucked if they did that now, some Karen would rat them out instantly to planning and zoning committee. In the late 60s/70s DIY builders were almost completely displaced by developers who lobbied for regulations that stomped out "a guy and his pickup truck" by and large almost anywhere with desirable land. Then the owners of those houses reinforced same to prop up their property values. I live in one of the last remaining counties that didn't do that, and last year I built a house for $60k. Pretty easy if you're in a place with essentially no codes or zoning. My (fairly) newlywed and I built the house with basically no experience either. | | |
| ▲ | cjs_ac 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | None of this is relevant to the discussion you've replied to, which is about the United Kingdom. | | |
| ▲ | mothballed 3 days ago | parent [-] | | And in turn none of the discussion you've replied to is relevant by your standard, because the OG article discusses the United States. Funny someone else is allowed to discuss UK in regards to an American article, but I'm not allowed to discuss America on a UK thread about an American article. | | |
| ▲ | cjs_ac 3 days ago | parent [-] | | The discussion was prompted by an article on sharehouses being banned in US cities, which prompted comparison to HMOs in the UK. One of those comparisons suggested that HMOs are a recent phenomenon and are a cause in the shortage of family homes in the UK. I replied to this by arguing that a shortage of family homes was also present in the 1970s, and that overcrowded housing for working families has been common throughout British history. You've replied to this with your personal experiences about building a home in the 1970s and dealing with building regulations. The discussion about the effects of UK HMOs on wider housing availability is indeed a peripheral discussion of limited interest to most. Your comment, while of interest to me, was only tangentially related to my comment. I'm not arguing that you shouldn't have written it - as I said, I found it interesting - I'm just pointing out that it doesn't flow well from what came before it. | | |
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| ▲ | bombcar 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Apparently there are still some states that are pretty lax, I've heard Wyoming doesn't terribly care much. But then you're a billion miles from anywhere. |
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| ▲ | danny_codes 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Or fix both. Housing in UK/US seems to suffer from simultaneous under-and over- regulation. We over-regulate urban infill housing, and over-regulate the types of housing you can build. We under-regulate landowner profits by letting them keep land rents. A holistic fix would address both causes of failure in the housing market. |
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| ▲ | basisword 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| >> houses of multiple occupancy. It's a great idea where you take a home that in the 1980s would house a family and split it into 5 flats where each person can rent 10-20 square metres each This isn't correct. When a house is split into multiple flats, they're individual flats rented out under separate agreements and not a HMO. A HMO is when that house is rented to a group of people who are unrelated to each other (i.e. not of the same 'household'). They are generally jointly and severally liable (under an AST). They each have a bedroom and share kitchen/bathroom/common areas. HMO's have stricter health & safety regulations. For example, doors must be the automatically closing fire doors that you get in public buildings. |
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| ▲ | physicsguy 3 days ago | parent [-] | | > They are generally jointly and severally liable (under an AST). That’s usually the case for student rentals but largely isn’t the case for professional rentals where each room is let separately | | |
| ▲ | basisword 3 days ago | parent [-] | | In about 18 years in HMO's I've only had one occasion where the rooms were let separately (in that case they were all being let separately from the start). Most of the time you move in and join an existing lease where the leaving tenant is removed and you are added alongside the other tenants. I think it probably depends on how the initial people moved in. If the estate agent is renting the rooms individually from the beginning it'll be separate agreements. If it's initially rented to a group of friends it's likely a joint AST and then re-assigned over the years as individuals change and the lease is renewed until you have a bunch of strangers jointly and severally liable (not a great idea). | | |
| ▲ | physicsguy 3 days ago | parent [-] | | Maybe this is a 'where you live' sort of thing then... I've never been based in London and when I was HMO-ing it was typically stuff on Spareroom which was always individual lets per room pretty much in the areas I lived at least (probably less competitive than London) |
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| ▲ | nradov 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| The UK has also had extremely high immigration rates since the 1980s. Whether that's good or bad policy isn't my place to say, but it certainly places extreme pressure on the housing market. https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/lo... |
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| ▲ | philipwhiuk 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > Whether that's good or bad policy isn't my place to say Right, you're just dragging in migration to the discussion, which is entirely a side issue, purely out of the goodness of your heart. From your link: > The UK has experienced broadly similar levels of migration compared to other high-income countries, on average, over the past few decades That doesn't make it sound like the UK is an outlier, contrary to the implication of your statement. | | |
| ▲ | nradov 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Assume positive intent. I flagged your comment because you made a false and scurrilous insinuation about my intentions. I'm not a UK citizen or resident and don't care about their immigration policy one way or another. But a high immigration rate will obviously increase housing demand: this is basic macroeconomics and trivially true. The UK net immigration rate has been high relative to other countries worldwide, especially in recent years. It is an outlier on that basis. I'm not sure why you would limit the comparison to only high-income countries. | | |
| ▲ | philipwhiuk 3 days ago | parent [-] | | Because that’s what your source said? | | |
| ▲ | nradov 3 days ago | parent [-] | | In general I'm happy to debate about facts but I'm not going to engage with someone who makes slimy, low-effort insinuations about motives. |
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| ▲ | aianus 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Which high income countries have had high immigration and low housing price increases? |
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| ▲ | jjk166 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | UK's population has gone up 16% since 1980. Average UK home price, adjusted for inflation, has gone up 104% in the same time period. | | |
| ▲ | ReptileMan 3 days ago | parent [-] | | Inelastic demand has this effect | | |
| ▲ | coryrc 3 days ago | parent [-] | | Only when faced with inelastic supply, which, unlike the demand, is not intrinsically necessary. |
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