> you only need to learn very few knots to do nearly everything

I see a lot of posts here along these lines. It turns out there is a trade-off between knots: how easy they are to undo vs how likely they are to spontaneously untie, particularly when not under load.

Most of the "every knot you need" recommendations here seem to come from people tying things down for a short haul, and consequently come from the the "easy to untie" end of the spectrum. The sheepshank is great for a temporary tie down but obviously falls apart when not under load. Less obviously so does the bowline, figure 8, and most knots composed of half-hitches.

A rock climber takes a dim view of knots that spontaneously untie when they aren't looking, so they use a different set of knots. At the extreme are fishermen. A single strand of nylon is slippery, is weakened by kinks, and yet a fisherman's knot must remain secure while drifting in the surf being bashed waves. Consequently, they will use complex, slow to tie knots with 7 or 10 loops.

Your knots look to be at the "easy to untie" kind, except the alpine butterfly. If it has been under high load for a while it can be a real bitch to get apart. It's popular with climbers, but I would not recommend it for tying down a load.

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david-gpu 3 days ago | parent [-]

> I see a lot of posts here along these lines. It turns out there is a trade-off between knots: how easy they are to undo vs how likely they are to spontaneously untie, particularly when not under load.

Agreed. There are many tradeoffs, indeed. But just because there are ten common knots that can do a bend, it doesn't mean that a person benefits from using all of them -- they all perform the same function, so knowing a single secure bend is enough, especially for a beginner asking these sorts of questions.

Personally, I have chosen my knots based on how safe and effective they are, as well as how easy they are to remember, tie, dress, verify and untie after load. The Zeppelin bend is hard to verify against e.g. the hunter's bend or Ashley's -- but it's just as secure as a flemish bend at a fraction of the effort to tie. The double sheet bend is bleh, but I didn't want to get into the weeds of what to do when joining ropes of very dissimilar diameters.

> Most of the "every knot you need" recommendations here seem to come from people tying things down for a short haul, and consequently come from the the "easy to untie" end of the spectrum

Agreed. I would say camping-style knots tend to be easy to tie, easy to untie, and not adequate for safety critical applications.

> Your knots look to be at the "easy to untie" kind

If you mean "easy to untie after being heavily loaded", then we agree. If you mean "can become untied accidentally after e.g. intermittent loads", we disagree. They are climbing knots, after all.

I specifically did not include knots that are commonly recommended even though they untie easily e.g. under intermittent loads, such as the sheet bend or the bowline, precisely because of how easily they become untied.

> It's popular with climbers, but I would not recommend it for tying down a load.

I am not in love with the alpine butterfly variations in general, but in the specific context of making a midline fixed loop without access to either end, there's not much to choose from as far as I know. The Figure-8 capsizes in that application, for example. That said, I would rather use an accessory line with a friction hitch (e.g. Prusik loop), but an alpine butterfly is commonly used in safety critical applications as you mention, so I'm curious to learn what you would rather use in that situation.

As for fishermen and safety, how do you explain that they still commonly use the bowline or the sheet bend?

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rstuart4133 2 days ago | parent [-]

> As for fishermen and safety, how do you explain that they still commonly use the bowline or the sheet bend?

I've not seen a lot of fisherman use them myself. But if they are indeed common as you say, then it must mean most fisherman are beginners.

Fisherman are nice people. They help each other out, and they learn fast. For example when a fish falls off the line a beginner will often loudly proclaim it bit through the line. Someone with experience often takes that opportunity to look for the telltale curls in the nylon line indicating the knot had slipped, rather than being cut. If they see them, they will often congratulate the beginner on nearly catching the biggest fish of the day - it's a shame they don't know how to tie a fishing knot.

> I specifically did not include knots that are commonly recommended even though they untie easily e.g. under intermittent loads, such as the sheet bend or the bowline,

Ahh, sorry. Reading comprehension fail on my part. I confused your post with others that mentioned the bowline. It's a wonderful knot, but it must be kept under tension.

> alpine butterfly is commonly used in safety critical applications as you mention, so I'm curious to learn what you would rather use in that situation.

As I said as the start, I was thinking you were recommending knots for casual use. I'd use the Alpine Butterfly when I want something that won't slip in that situation, however I quietly curse under my breath while tying it because if it gets tight I've created a lot of work, particularly if I don't have a marlin spike handy. I haven't owned one for years now, so I go out of my way to not use the butterfly.

	▲	david-gpu 2 days ago \| parent [-]
		To be frank, this has been a rather disappointing conversation. I gave some quick guidance for newbies with some broader context to help them, only to have somebody dismiss everything I said because they didn't pay any attention to what was written. Next time, please do read what you reply to, especially if you are going to be dismissive. What a waste of everybody's time. I was hoping to learn something new. Bleh.