You work really really hard to tie conservative project to Obama. No, this is on republicans and conservatives 100%, they worked hard to achieve this and succeeded. The democrats and Obama have their own issues, but them not being saints does not make the above untrue.

I agree it was long term project, it took decades of propaganda and hard work on conservative side. But like, Obama was not part of conservative project nor step toward Project 2025.

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BiteCode_dev 3 days ago | parent [-]

This type of comment is a problem.

Instead of trying to evaluate the argument on its merits:

- There is a long-term systemic problem, POTUS is a symptom.

- Democracy has been at risk for 20 years in the US, starting with the destruction of Habeas Corpus after 9/11, under thunderous applause.

- The opposition has been weak at best, and didn't show its value by attempting to reverse the worse of the trends when they had the chance. So nobody trusted them anymore. They didn't represent something to rally for, only the opposite of what you didn't want.

You attempt to put me in a tribe and judge me on that.

Except... I live in Europe. I don't care about your tribes, I can only see you have a wannabe dictator in place, and that it's the consequence of a long chain of events. It's not an unexpected surprise.

Arguing "that's because of the bad guys" is like falling in the mud and blaming the mud.

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watwut 3 days ago | parent [-]

> I live in Europe. I don't care about your tribes,

That is irrelevant. Regardless of where you live, your argument amounted to working really hard here to blame republican policies, radicalization and behavior on Obama. You tied together things that were in fact not alike at all.

>I can only see you have a wannabe dictator in place, and that it's the consequence of a long chain of events

And insisting that Obama is in any way relevant to that long chain is either bad faith or just disinterest in what happened.

> Arguing "that's because of the bad guys" is like falling in the mud and blaming the mud.

But it is you who want to make it into that, except that "bad guys" are any random American politician you can think of. It does actually matter who did what.

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jacquesm 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

As another European: Obama didn't make things (much) worse, but he also didn't do anything to really arrest the slide even though he had the opportunity to do so. At the same time: I realize that in many ways his hands were tied but he also simply never tried, when he could have. Similar to how it took him 7 long months to speak up when he really should have spoken up much, much earlier. Right now the whole democratic wing of the US establishment looks like it is along for the ride, rather than that they are fighting tooth and nail to arrest the further descent into madness.

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matwood 2 days ago | parent [-]

> he had the opportunity to do so

Could he have done more? Sure. But he spent a lot of political capital getting the ACA done. Then he followed traditional political decorum when the GOP pushed him around that in hindsight was a mistake. If all the rules both written and unwritten are going to be thrown out, the obviously it's best for the person who throws them out.

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jacquesm 2 days ago | parent [-]

I'm more pissed off at Obama's inaction in the last 7 months than about what he did during his tenure as president. He's still in 'nice guy' mode, we don't need nice guys right now, we need counterweight, and soon.

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kashunstva 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

> I'm more pissed off at Obama's inaction in the last 7 months

This. There’s a deep vacuum of leadership in the Democratic Party. Obama is a widely trusted figure on the progressive side and has nothing to lose by saying plainly what everyone can see. Only Gavin Newsom has demonstrated a willingness to do this. At the Federal level, though, the leadership is MIA. I mean Obama owes no one anything now; but I do wish he would just say what needs to be said.

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matwood 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Again, following traditional decorum where past POTUS's usually stay out of the way for the current. Of course, at this point we all know the traditions are dead, and I agree Obama should be leading wherever he can.

	▲	jacquesm 2 days ago \| parent [-]
		This is one of those break-the-glass situations.

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BiteCode_dev 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

The main argument is "it's been in the mix for 20 years", and part of demonstrating it has been was to state that even the Obama administration didn't do much to stop it, so it kept escalating.

Not only I don't conflate the two, but you make the whole Obama note the center of this discussion, while it was there for the purpose of illustration.

This is how tribe politics work and how the US fell to the best populists instead of trying to tackle society's problems.

I have no interest in discussing with you anymore, since you don't seem interested in talking about ideas, only find an enemy to your tribes.