| ▲ | ants_everywhere 14 hours ago |
| There's been an attempt to redefine "trauma" broadly. Technically trauma is acute stress. That is, a great deal of stress delivered all at one time. There's been an attempt to redefine it to include chronic stress. That is, generally living under stressful conditions. I don't know why people are doing this, but it's almost always closely bound to politics. For example, the commenter below mentioning the political commentators Will Self and Dan Carlin as evidence for the theory. I've noticed generally that people who talk about trauma being broad in this sense also tend to have a confused understanding of psychology in general. > One of the main premises of this article is that society today is more traumatic than in the past, which I find to be laughably incorrect. They are definitely incorrect. One pop culture way of looking at this is fairy tales. Not too long ago we used to tell children that if they went into the woods they could get eaten by people who lived there and lured children into their houses. |
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| ▲ | elmomle 14 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Do you think another term is more appropriate to describe the experiences underlying CPTSD? It's now quite broadly recognized that its effect on the psyche is severe and if anything broader in impact and more difficult to heal than acute trauma. |
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| ▲ | Aurornis 14 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Do you think another term is more appropriate to describe the experiences underlying CPTSD? True CPTSD as diagnosed over time by a clinician is the result of complex traumas (complex, specifically, as that’s part of the definition. It’s what the C is for). The term is valid in that context. In common social media language, even the term CPTSD has become diluted. It was intended to represent complex cases of PTSD which were edge cases, and correspondingly rare. At some point the social media version of CPTSD emerged as a generic term and nearly everyone who self-diagnosed as having PTSD started upgrading themselves to CPTSD. The comment above is right that “trauma” has become so generic as to cover everything stressful or saddening in common vernacular. The concept of CPTSD was supposed to be a step above even normal trauma, but now even CPTSD is being brought out as a generic term for any post-trauma response, which was never the definition of CPTSD. A similar trend is happening on social media with the ADHD influencers now upgrading themselves to “AuDHD” which they say is a special more difficult variant of ADHD combined with Autism. My friends in psychiatry are at their wits end with all of the people coming in and demanding Autism diagnoses or “AuDHD” diagnoses despite not showing Autistic traits at all. There’s an arms race going on where some people try to amplify experiences into something much more dramatic. These therapy and psychiatry terms start to lose their meaning when they get adopted by social media. | | |
| ▲ | tejohnso 10 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > My friends in psychiatry are at their wits end with all of the people coming in and demanding Autism diagnoses Why would you want, much less demand, to be diagnosed with any particular disorder? Is there such a thing as being fashionably disordered? I think that if I felt something was wrong with me, I would want to be accurately diagnosed, not fashionably diagnosed. | | |
| ▲ | DavidPiper 10 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Is there such a thing as being fashionably disordered? Anecdotally, absolutely yes. Based on what the Instagram and YouTube feeds have sent me over the last couple of years, ADHD in particular (Autism less so, but as the parent notes, "AuDHD" is becoming very popular) is totally glamourised at this point, much to the detriment of people who actually have to manage ADHD and Autism, I assume. There is an enormous amount of monetised content around it. | | |
| ▲ | PaulHoule 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | The ADHD culture is particularly dangerous because it is a license to get dangerous addictive drugs that frequently get diverted. Used as directed people don't have trouble in the short term but I know a lot of 50-somethings who were in school districts that were early adopters of the ADHD construct and a lot of them are in terrible shape. When people save up a week worth of meds and take them at once they often wind up in the psych ward. When you see the drugged out people who drive people out of cities into the suburbs or give you another reason to order a private taxi for your burrito [1], note that psychosis is frequently caused or exacerbated by amphetamines. Plenty of people who get a prescription and who feel poor and that the world is unfair develop a "tolerance" for their meds because they are keeping 1 and selling 2 and they're contributing to that visible disorder you see. [1] https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/good-cities-cant-exist-without... |
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| ▲ | PaulHoule 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | There's a good discussion of this in the https://www.amazon.com/Autism-Matrix-Gil-Eyal/dp/074564399X and you can ask the question of why schizotypy https://www.amazon.com/Schizotypy-Schizophrenia-View-Experim... is ignored which is that by being a developmental disability "autism" avoids the stigma that a diagnosis of severe mental ilness would bring (e.g. confirmed bipolar Kanye West thinks he is autistic, Elon Musk who sure acts like he's bipolar but is not diagnosed also thinks he is autistic) If you told the parents of the kid who's being bullied in first grade who shows some signs of anxiety and seems to be dressed oddly that he has a 10% chance of losing his mind completely as a young adult they'd be horrified. Tell them that he has autism and they can get more resources. | | |
| ▲ | gsf_emergency_2 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | Schizotypy is perceived to be left-wing :) The less flippant rewording of that is that the schizotypal mindset prefers strong-link "positive-sum" problems |
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| ▲ | lanstin 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This phenomenon is not new; the love of drama that even common and routine trauma leaves many people with makes these sorts of attractions to diagnoses very appealing. I once hung out a lot with a class of masters students in experimental psychology and they all went thru evaluating their own minds thru the lens of various pathologies. My own childhood included the relatively common experience of being sexually assaulted by a relative and being threatened with death if I talked about it, and as a young adult, while I never quite believed I had MPD, I read so many books by and on multiple personality disorder, and took both comfort and inspiration from the stories. Like so many other things in our human society, networked technology is making this part of society more visible. | | |
| ▲ | watwut 12 hours ago | parent [-] | | > I once hung out a lot with a class of masters students in experimental psychology and they all went thru evaluating their own minds thru the lens of various pathologies. Something similar happens with medical students. They kind of start to recognize themselves in all kinds of physical conditions. It is fairly common phase they go through. |
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| ▲ | LorenPechtel 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It looks to me like many of the psych diagnoses come down to how much trouble we have with the situation. And, personally, I look at the world, do I meet the criteria for Asperger's? Probably, although without a time machine there doe not appear to be any way to be certain. But it's a so-what I have had no reason to ever talk to a psychiatrist about. A label won't change reality, it won't provide any solutions, why should I bother? | |
| ▲ | crawfordcomeaux 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Your friends in psychiartry...are they acknowledging the impact of living under oppression as a direct cause of issues & advocating for an end to oppression? Because that's what many healers outside of western medicine are touting. People are amplifying because the western medicine approach isn't addressing underlying issues & so people are trying to explain the compounding of their issues in the language of western medicine. The dismissiveness in these comments is a direct driver of this culture. | | |
| ▲ | resonious 12 hours ago | parent [-] | | I'll be honest, I don't think I would've interpreted "demanding an AuDHD diagnosis" as "explaining the compounding of their issues in the language of western medicine". Especially if their issues are just oppression. Perhaps I'm just misunderstanding. Western medicine is well aware of the fact that they can't treat the underlying cause of things like autism and ADHD. If you're a real patient with one of these diagnoses (or even depression), they will tell you that upfront. They're not pretending to fix anything with pills. |
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| ▲ | growingkittens 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | "True CPTSD" doesn't exist as a diagnosis yet in the DSM. Referring to it that way is highly disingenuous. I was recently diagnosed as "AuDHD". I noticed that doctors who don't understand anything outside of depression and anxiety were more likely to refer to autism as a "fad". |
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| ▲ | nyolfen 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > One of the strangest fixations of AWFL metaphysics is on a substance called 'trauma' that they believe is 'stored in the body' in small saclike organs where it constantly threatens to be 'triggered' and erupt out of its ducts. They assert life itself is about 'processing trauma' |
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| ▲ | cycomanic 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > There's been an attempt to redefine "trauma" broadly. Technically trauma is acute stress. That is, a great deal of stress delivered all at one time. There's been an attempt to redefine it to include chronic stress. That is, generally living under stressful conditions.
> Do you have any references for trauma being tide to short acute stress? Looking at Wikipedia does not include acute stress and even talks about the difference between short trauma and long term trauma. Also I definitely recall that even when I was young (>30 years ago) we would talk about e.g. the trauma of child abuse or sexual abuse, which is often not acute. |
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| ▲ | ants_everywhere 11 hours ago | parent [-] | | Acute in the sense that it's delivered all at once, not that its effects are short-lived. For example, the DSM defines PTSD, which is post-traumatic stess disorder. I.e. a trauma occurred (acute stess) and the lingering disorder is a stess disorder rather than a trauma disorder. You might colloquially say you have been living with the trauma of PTSD, but that doesn't make sense; you're really living with the stress of PTSD after having experienced the initial trauma. They don't use the words "acute" or "chronic", that was my attempt to explain it to a lay audience. The first paragraph of Wikipedia describes it as "caused by severe distressing events, such as bodily injury, sexual violence, or other threats to the life of the subject or their loved ones." The DSM-V diagnosis requires "exposure to actual or threatened death, serious injury, or sexual violence." I.e. a traumatic event. You can experience multiple traumatic events. But, medically, the distinction seems to be that delivering stress chemicals to your body all at once produces a different response than delivering them consistently over time. > the trauma of child abuse or sexual abuse, which is often not acute. People talk this way. Dictionary.com also mentions the "trauma of divorce." The trauma of divorce is clearly metaphorical rather than actual trauma. Sexual violence does count as a traumatic event. Violence toward children would also count as a traumatic event. Whether a child (or even adult) that has been abused has PTSD depends on the facts of the case. One should not assume that trauma is better or more severe than stress delivered over a longer period. Imprisonment, child abuse, and working in a military hospital are all things that come to mind as experiences that would leave a lasting impression. But those symptoms would generally not be the same as trauma symptoms. You do have to be careful on Wikipedia with this topic because they mention unconscious suppression of child abuse, which is not a thing that happens. It also says awareness of climate change causes trauma, which it does not. The article needs a pass from someone with a professional background. | | |
| ▲ | growingkittens 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Considering that psychiatry is in its infancy, your statements have a level of finality that isn't warranted at all. | |
| ▲ | rendx 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > they mention unconscious suppression of child abuse, which is not a thing that happens Chu, J. A., Frey, L. M., Ganzel, B. L., & Matthews, J. A. (1999). Memories of childhood abuse: dissociation, amnesia, and corroboration. The American journal of psychiatry, 156(5), 749–755. https://doi.org/10.1176/ajp.156.5.749 "Higher dissociative symptoms were correlated with early age at onset of physical and sexual abuse and more frequent sexual abuse. A substantial proportion of participants with all types of abuse reported partial or complete amnesia for abuse memories. For physical and sexual abuse, early age at onset was correlated with greater levels of amnesia." Boyer, S. M., Caplan, J. E., & Edwards, L. K. (2022). Trauma-Related Dissociation and the Dissociative Disorders:: Neglected Symptoms with Severe Public Health Consequences. Delaware journal of public health, 8(2), 78–84. https://doi.org/10.32481/djph.2022.05.010 "Dissociative amnesia is characterized by gaps in autobiographical memory beyond normal forgetting, that may range from one experience to several years." Ehlers, A., & Clark, D. M. (2000). A cognitive model of posttraumatic stress disorder. Behaviour research and therapy, 38(4), 319-345. https://doi.org/10.1016/S0005-7967(99)00123-0 etc > also says awareness of climate change causes trauma, which it does not Albrecht, G., Sartore, G.-M., Connor, L., Higginbotham, N., Freeman, S., Kelly, B., Stain, H., Tonna, A., & Pollard, G. (2007). Solastalgia: the distress caused by environmental change. Australasian Psychiatry, 15(Suppl 1), S95–S98. https://doi.org/10.1080/10398560701701288. Cunsolo, A., & Ellis, N. R. (2018). Ecological grief as a mental health response to climate change-related loss. Nature Climate Change, 8, 275–281. https://doi.org/10.1038/s41558-018-0092-2. Usher, K., Durkin, J., & Bhullar, N. (2019). Eco-anxiety: How thinking about climate change-related environmental decline is affecting our mental health. International Journal of Mental Health Nursing, 28(6), 1233–1234. https://doi.org/10.1111/inm.12673. Coffey, Y., Bhullar, N., Durkin, J., Islam, S., Usher, K. (2021). Understanding Eco-anxiety: A Systematic Scoping Review of Current Literature and Identified Knowledge Gaps, The Journal of Climate Change and Health, Volume 3, 2021, https://doi.org/10.1016/j.joclim.2021.100047. Walinski, A., Sander, J., Gerlinger, G., Clemens, V., Meyer-Lindenberg, A., & Heinz, A. (2023). The Effects of Climate Change on Mental Health. Deutsches Arzteblatt international, 120(8), 117–124. https://doi.org/10.3238/arztebl.m2022.0403 "The available evidence shows that traumatic experiences due to extreme weather events increase the risk of affective and anxiety disorders, *especially the risk of post-traumatic stress disorder*. Heat significantly increases the morbidity and mortality attributable to mental illness, as well as the frequency of psychiatric emergencies. Persistent stressors such as drought, food insecurity, and migration owing to climate change can also be major risk factors for mental illness." etc | | |
| ▲ | ants_everywhere 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | With due respect I assume you believe these papers are somehow relevant and that you're making a point, but these papers aren't the evidence you think they are. You are also promoting outright cranks in other comments. Psychohistory, Freudianism, repressed memories, and multiple personalities are all debunked ideas. Dissociative amnesia is just the rebranding of the repressed memory hypothesis. Anxiety and grief are not trauma. | | |
| ▲ | rendx 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | Citations needed. I don't see how "outright cranks", "debunked ideas", are a constructive way to engage in such discussions. You asked for professional opinions, I provided professional opinions. You provided nothing. | | |
| ▲ | ants_everywhere 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | I have a hard rule that I don't provide citations to people who don't know the field and seem motivated primarily by politics. This cuts down on sealioning. But if you're interested in the topic, most of what I've said is covered in a university intro to psych course. I think they may also be covered in AP psych courses. I recommend looking up some of the top psych programs and seeing what they use for their intro undergrad course. That will go over the rejection of Freud and psychoanalysis, the difference between things like anxiety and trauma, and most likely the repressed memory fiasco in the 80s and 90s. Wikipedia has references for dissociative amnesia under the controversy section. Also check out the repressed memory article. For the basics of science and pseudoscience you'd have to take a course in scientific methods. | | |
| ▲ | rendx 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | You add another ad hominem, great. You know nothing about me and my educational background. You are not required to engage in a discussion, but my point stands: You provide no supporting evidence whatsoever for your perspective. "Prolonged trauma in childhood, however, can produce severe identity disturbances that may interfere with the encoding and later retrieval of personal semantic and autobiographical event information. […] In light of our accumulating empirical and theoretical understanding, genuine recovered memory experiences no longer appear as bizarre or counter-intuitive as they have been painted by those who are skeptical of their occurrence. The field has not been well-served by much of the existing literature, which has uncritically embraced a variety of myths, logical errors, and false assumptions, and adopted a simplistic approach to what are complex and fascinating memory phenomena […]" Brewin, C.R. (2012). A Theoretical Framework for Understanding Recovered Memory Experiences. In: Belli, R. (eds) True and False Recovered Memories. Nebraska Symposium on Motivation, vol 58. Springer, New York, NY. https://doi.org/10.1007/978-1-4614-1195-6_5 The Rise and Fall of the False Memory Syndrome Foundation (2020) https://news.isst-d.org/the-rise-and-fall-of-the-false-memor... "Debates are frequently characterised by people hunkering down with theoretical rigidity and engaging in ad hominin attack, rather than using scientific debate to further knowledge" | | |
| ▲ | ants_everywhere 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yes we are all familiar with the repressed memory cranks like Chris Brewin. He's been at it since the 1990s. You are not my child and it's not my job to educate you. I'm not going to explain physics to everyone who thinks he has a perpetual motion device either. | | |
| ▲ | rendx 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | You are totally right. Nobody asked you to respond to my contributions in this thread. You decided to talk down on me and other people with zero arguments other than personal attacks. That's fully on you. "We are all familiar" with that pattern. | | |
| ▲ | ants_everywhere 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | I responded because I care about science education and psychology education and wanted to correct the record. When someone comes in with a bunch of links that can be confusing to people who don't know the field. If you have motivation and strong enough confirmation bias you can find papers that claim to support anything. Even the existence of telepathy https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=extrasensory+perception That's why it's hard to have good judgment about a field unless you've studied it formally. |
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| ▲ | esseph 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Dan Carlin as a political commenter? Definitely a historian (tons of works). |
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| ▲ | Ryder123 11 hours ago | parent [-] | | Have you listened to his Common Sense podcast? He doesnt produce many episodes anymore (he talks about why in some of his most revent ones) but it used to be far more regular than Hardcore History. | | |
| ▲ | esseph 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | No, have not. Have listened to quite a few HH segments though. |
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| ▲ | WombatsRiots 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| A completely underrated author on trauma is C. Fred Alford. PTSD morphed from a diagnosis for soldiers returning from Vietnam to encompass everything. Life is traumatic. Everyone you know and love will die, and you will die. We also individually react differently to traumatic experiences, and a life changing positive moment for one person could destroy another. https://traumatheory.com/time-to-drop-ptsd/ |
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| ▲ | PaulHoule 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I like this concept https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shit_life_syndrome in that it describes the interaction of poverty and mental illness which can well be interpreted in a left-wing frame (these people are victims of the system, they need to get some more resources to get their footing) or a right-wing frame (these people don't take responsibility, they drive away, squander or destroy resources) At times theories of broad trauma were respectable such as Freud's Oedipus theory and even today I think certain kinds of organizations such as the U.S. Marines and the medical profession can be seen as transmitting their culture through traumatic experiences. |
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| ▲ | gsf_emergency_2 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | Right-wing trauma gets misdiagnosed (as autism, moral injury eg etc) because that setting is way less gauche. Adding to your examples, there's tiger-mom type trauma (+Jewish variants of that) which has inherited the superficial respectability of Oedipal (neo-Bronze? Neo-aetic? Neo-chalcic?) myths Tying back to GP's fairytales, obviously |
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| ▲ | libertine 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > They are definitely incorrect. One pop culture way of looking at this is fairy tales. Not too long ago we used to tell children that if they went into the woods they could get eaten by people who lived there and lured children into their houses. You're probably right that in the past there were more messed up events, which had high chance of being traumatic. But you're forgetting the role that Perception has in that equation - from the perspective of a human, a traumatic event isn't a comparison exercise to all possible events, or to past events on previous generations. Your subjective experience is bound to your context. In that sense, I wouldn't be shocked if there was more trauma now from the amount of stimulus were getting throughout our life, and the volume of dramatic changes we go through, and the amount of people and chaos that comes with it. For example, we have way more accidents, and we also have higher survival rates from accidents due to safety measures, and a advanced medical care. So, many deadly events in the past became accidents now, and by consequence, a high chance of it being a traumatic event, sometimes for the victim and the family (directly or indirectly). Not to mention that our life styles don't even allow us to process traumatic events properly. |
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| ▲ | oofbey 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Language constantly evolves. So it’s a little unfair to say anybody is trying to change a definition. In specific professional contexts, definitions are necessarily much more precise. Because in these contexts definitions have consequences. But in general dialogue being pedantic and sticking to a strict definition generally just makes you an ass. In psychiatry trauma has long been defined much more narrowly than just acute stress. Specifically exposure to actual or threatened death, serious injury, or sexual violence. So not just any acute stress but stress associated with real life violence. That’s the DSM definition of trauma for PTSD and you’ll sometimes find nitpicky professionals sticking to this narrow definition. But it’s not how most people use the word. |
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| ▲ | SoftTalker 13 hours ago | parent [-] | | I think it's understandable that someone with the experiences to give them "real" DSM-defined PTSD might look sideways or roll their eyes at someone claiming PTSD because they had strict parents who made them go to church or didn't let them play video games. Doesn't make them an ass. | | |
| ▲ | sokka_h2otribe 12 hours ago | parent [-] | | No, it's not actually understandable to me. I don't believe the person with PTSD of your definition benefits from gatekeeping an understanding of ptsd. It also just flatly does not correspond to the research. Modern PTSD and cptsd concepts exist because the existing concepts didn't work, and the patients fit classic outcomes. Put another way, If someone was assaulted in church, maybe they had a more "real" PTSD
If someone was different in their head and felt constrained at church everyday and their heart rate goes up every time they enter a church to the same degree as the assaulted persons does too....that's the outcome being similar (with some simplifications). Trauma is the bad thing and being unable to do anything about it, and what that can do to your psyche. People develop trauma not just because of how bad the experience was, but the circumstances before and after. |
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