| ▲ | talkingtab 10 hours ago |
| Meta is a corporation that is anti-democracy. In the US we have this thing called free speech. Requiring non-disclosure in order to get a severance (or to get a settlement for abuse) is not an excuse for doing this. More and more corporations are resorting to the predatory practice of abusing the court system to protect their hide their actions. You may accept this kind of thing, I do not. |
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| ▲ | gruez 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| >In the US we have this thing called free speech. Requiring non-disclosure in order to get a severance (or to get a settlement for abuse) is not an excuse for doing this. As discussed umpteenth times in every free speech debate ever, "free speech" as enshrined in the legal system only offers protection from the government. There's a broader principle of free speech in general, but it's unclear whether that should be applicable in this case, where two private entities entered into an agreement where one side agreed to cease speech in exchange for money. |
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| ▲ | EasyMark 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | None of that stands if one of the entities in a contract is breaking the law, and I'm guessing that colluding with China to break international human rights laws is not protected by a contract as it's illegal in the USA and likely illegal in the UK. If she falls under whistleblower laws it should protect her, that's evidently not happening. | | |
| ▲ | gruez 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | >I'm guessing that colluding with China to break international human rights laws is not protected by a contract as it's illegal in the USA and likely illegal in the UK The wikipedia article says facebook tried to appease chinese censors. That's bad, but so far as I can tell, isn't illegal under US or UK law. Microsoft complies with chinese censor demands for bing and they seem to be doing fine, for instance. The only plausible case for "they're breaking laws" is them breaking the UDHR, but that's an unenforceable document that's not worth the paper it's printed on. |
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| ▲ | riku_iki 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | the interesting part is that in this specific case, Meta allegedly was a tool to suppress free speech by government. Although, government was Chinese. | |
| ▲ | 93po 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | We have a legal system that allows for private agreements of restricted speech, which can be and is frequently abused by the party in a position of power (in this case, a 2 trillion dollar company). And these agreements are enforced by the government. So it is in a round-about way the government infringing on rights, both by allowing it to happen and also enforcing it. | | |
| ▲ | gruez 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | >which can be and is frequently abused by the party in a position of power (in this case, a 2 trillion dollar company). Define "abuse"? Is it just because Meta is a trillion dollar company? Or that they offered a huge amount? Does that mean the courts should refuse to enforce any sort of agreement between Meta and any individual? If meta decides to offer me (no prior relationship to them) 50k to stop talking shit about them, and I accepted, am I being "abused"? What if I'm a vocal critic? Would that be abuse? | | |
| ▲ | riku_iki 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Does that mean the courts should refuse to enforce any sort of agreement between Meta and any individual? not any, but those which cover potential crimes. | | |
| ▲ | gruez 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Even with a NDA, you can still go to the authorities to report illegal acts. You just can't monetize your past employment in the form of a 500k book deal. Between the public's interest of crimes being prosecuted and the freedom of individuals being able to enter into agreements, I think that's already a pretty fair trade-off. | | |
| ▲ | riku_iki 21 minutes ago | parent [-] | | > you can still go to the authorities to report illegal acts that authority could be birded by corp and report will go nowhere. > You just can't monetize your past employment in the form of a 500k book deal. sure, its reasonable to have non-monetization clause in contract, but it is unreasonable to have blanket statements to not ever talk about events during employments under any circumstances, which likely included into NDA. |
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| ▲ | user3939382 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I would say using the court system rather than abusing, simple because IMHO the courts primarily exist to defend corporate rights contrary to the marketing. |
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| ▲ | asveikau 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Is it that meta is anti-democracy or is it just that Mark Zuckerberg is kind of an idiot? The feeling I get from the book is more towards the latter. Speaking personally, the moment I knew that Zuckerberg knew nothing about politics was circa 2010, when he announced his plan to join forces with Chris Christie to "fix Newark schools". I don't care if you support team red or team blue, but it was obvious to anyone who knew politics at that time that Christie was a con artist. Why waste any amount of time and money on this project destined to fail? If Zuck had any insight and had a goal to do an actual thing and see it work, he would not have. He spent $100 million on that. |
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| ▲ | EasyMark 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | He's not an idiot, he just doesn't think the law applies to him because he's one of the richest people in the world. | |
| ▲ | doganugurlu 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Not trying to defend him but this isn’t a fair characterization of his intellect since he was 15 years younger and tech industry was very interested in doing good back then. | | |
| ▲ | asveikau 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | I am of similar age to him and was in the tech industry at the time. It struck me at the time as a collosally dumb move and proof that he wasn't a smart guy. That is literally the point of my comment. There are a number of possible interpretations. One is that he was incapable of researching how stupid he was being in that moment. Another is that he didn't care about that and he did it only to improve his image. Few of the interpretations I can think of have him looking great. |
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| ▲ | jen20 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Is it that meta is anti-democracy or is it just that Mark Zuckerberg is kind of an idiot? Porque no los dos? |
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| ▲ | btbuildem 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > is a corporation that is anti-democracy Aren't a vast majority of large corporations inherently undemocratic? They all seem to be organized much more like authoritarian dystopias, with power held by a shadowy cabal (the board), then a king-like figure (CEO), with a court (all the C-levels), then trickling down to a coterie of lesser magnates, viceroys and dukes of all sorts (middle management), all the way down to vassals and peons who do what they are told. There is no democratic process in a corporation, everything is dictated top down. There's the Stasi / secret police / CIA (HR) who spy on everyone and root out then shut down dissent. Every decision is subservient to the Mission, the Vision, etc. They unironically have Five Year Plans. If you take some distance and look at it, corporations are awfully undemocratic. I think it follows they would be anti-democratic when it comes to things outside of their immediate boundaries; to have that power and want it extended beyond, for your advantage, that's inevitable. |
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| ▲ | riku_iki 19 minutes ago | parent [-] | | there is no democratic process in a corporation besides board voting, but they could be supportive for outer democratic environment, instead of attacking it. |
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| ▲ | vrighter 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| by saying "we have free speech" in this context, you are inadvertently admitting that you actually don't know what the right to free speech actually is. Rule of thumb: if neither party is the government, free speech is not relevant in any way shape or form. |
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| ▲ | kordlessagain 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Never sign anything going out the door that isn’t tied to a financial gain. |
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| ▲ | SketchySeaBeast 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | "If you don't sign you won't get severance" is exactly that. | | |
| ▲ | Kranar 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | Severance is a financial gain. You don't have to accept it. | | |
| ▲ | SketchySeaBeast 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Yeah, so in this case the advice "Never sign anything going out the door that isn’t tied to a financial gain." means you should probably sign the NDA. | |
| ▲ | pseudalopex 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Their point was kordlessagain's advice would not have changed this situation I think. |
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| ▲ | 77pt77 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | But it was tied to that! |
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| ▲ | BadCookie 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| What about requiring new employees to sign non-disparagement agreements? Maybe companies are getting “smarter” and requiring employees to agree to not say anything negative about their employer from day 1 … not sure about the legality here. |
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| ▲ | netfortius 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Replace "have" with "had" |
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| ▲ | hliyan 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I recently heard a US journalist/author named Chris Hedges say something to the effect that the US has the symbols, the iconography and the language of a democracy, but internally, corporates and oligarchs have seized all the levers of power, and that it is reminiscent of the end of the Roman Empire. He also went onto distinguish between corporates and oligarchs, claiming that the two political camps in the US actually represent these two sides (rather than democracy vs. facism or socialism). |
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| ▲ | brandall10 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | There is a great documentary called “The Century of the Self”, which is about the rise of consumerism in lockstep with politics in the United States. The initial primary focus is Edward Bernays, nephew of Sigmund Freud, who is known as the father of public relations. He was incredibly influential during his time, having been a key advisor on most federal administrations from the 20s to the 70s. On the corporate side, early big wins were getting women to smoke at the dawn of the Great Depression, and changing the 'American breakfast' to bacon and eggs. A core thesis of his is freedom in a large democratic state is a bit of an illusion… it needs to be controlled by consumerist impulses, or in other words, indirectly by corporations. Otherwise the all-encompassing hand of totalitarianism is needed. Without one of these mediating factors, the masses become unruly and descend into anarchy and chaos. His late 20s book "Propaganda" is an interesting insight into his early, free from public scorn, view on the matter. It seems overwhelmingly cynical and puppet-masterish, if you will, and he somewhat stepped back from it after finding out how much it had influenced Goebbels. Still, I think it holds strongly as a guidebook for how the US evolved to present day. | | | |
| ▲ | sva_ 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I find this comment a bit strange considering > she is being pushed to financial ruin through the arbitration system in the UK, Not the US. | | |
| ▲ | pseudalopex 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Meta are a US company. They took legal action against the author in the US also. And hliyan may have trusted readers to consider if UK politics had the same property. |
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| ▲ | dimal 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > reminiscent of the end of the Roman Empire Are you sure he didn’t mean the end of the Roman Republic, which was the beginning of the Principate? The Western Empire would last about another 400 years. We definitely are tracking the end of the Roman Republic. At that point, all constitutional norms had been violated so many times that they were mere suggestions, and political infighting by oligarchs was tearing the republic apart, to the point that people were relieved when Augustus took power. They still had a senate. They still had all the old offices and structures. But everyone knew who was in power. Much like today in the US. We don’t have one Princeps, but we all know that the oligarchs and corporations own the entire political and economic process. They write the rules to suit themselves. And they have common people fighting each other over cultural issues instead of fighting them for the stuff that matters — economic and political power. It’s a fantastic divide and conquer strategy. Unless common people start waking up to who their real enemies are, the American Republic is effectively over. | | |
| ▲ | dingnuts 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | I've been hearing this for thirty years and I think that people just like to predict the end times and the Roman empire is what's taught most closely in school | | |
| ▲ | dimal 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Eh, since the founders were explicitly inspired by the Roman Republic, it’s always been fun to wonder “where are we on the Roman timeline”. But it was about 150 years from when the Gracchi brothers were murdered until Augustus seized power. These things happen over time, not all at once. I don’t see any way to view today’s politics as normal. There is nothing but naked greed and hunger for power at play now. It wasn’t like this even 15 years ago. We’ve been a frog in a pot of water and it’s just starting to boil. | |
| ▲ | 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | mc32 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This case is from the UK. Is there some quote you can pull about someone critiquing the governmental system over there and how that’s reflected in this case? | |
| ▲ | imiric 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Isn't that obvious? When corporations can lobby to influence legislation, pay to get a candidate elected, and CEOs hold positions of power, including the presidency itself, any semblance of democracy is an illusion. | |
| ▲ | koakuma-chan 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | And why would "corporate" and "oligarchs" fight? Can the same person not be a "corporate" and an oligarch at the same time? | | |
| ▲ | mapt 10 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Another way of looking at this would be in terms of the millionaire managerial and professional class holding up the Democratic Party versus the interests of the billionaire aristocratic and executive class holding up the Republican Party. The billionaires are far less numerous, have far better ability to coordinate and summon resources, and have interests that diverge farther from the thousandaires who actually do most of the voting, compared to the millionaires. | | |
| ▲ | jfengel 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | The term "holding up" is doing a lot of work here. The Republican party has an extremely enthusiastic voter base. Billionaire money might encourage the enthusiasm but in the end the voters turn out and pull levers. They are sincere in their voting. The Democrats are a bit less enthusiastic, at least at the moment, but in the end it's not the millionaires who pull the levers. It's the rank and file. It's hard to tell how different it would be if we could somehow get the money out of it. But I am wary of assuming that the voters would dramatically change their attitudes. The millionaires and billionaires tune the party's message to what the voters want. They get the spoils but they're also making their voters happy, assuming they win. If they didn't do that, they'd lose. It's possible that the Democrats are more conspicuously failing to give their voters what they want when they win. But it's not obvious to me how they could do that. Most of the suggestions I hear are naive and impractical, and come down to "do the thing I want and many millions of others will see how great that is." | | |
| ▲ | econ 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | For election to work you would have to read [all of] the [not legally binding] election programs, ponder the offerings and make up your own mind. You won't find a single person who does this. Apparently everyone votes by a different mechanism. One that involves a lot of money. Even if everyone was well informed and able to objectively make their own choices that are truly their own. You don't actually have to do anything you wrote in your election program. | | |
| ▲ | threatofrain 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | We don't become legal experts to run a business, we hire lawyers. We don’t become doctors to aid in our own health either. So too should people find ways to delegate and evaluate economic and policy analysis. |
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| ▲ | laserlight 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > it's not the millionaires who pull the levers. It's the rank and file. “People can vote whichever side they prefer, as long as their opinions are based on fake news.” It's difficult to talk about rank and file pulling the levers, when millionaires manufacture the news. | | |
| ▲ | jfengel 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | You say that because you know that the news is fake, and you know that because it's not really that difficult to figure out at least an approximation of the truth. You know who are the abject liars (because they routinely tell outright falsehoods), and you know who at least tries to get it right even if they sometimes fail at it. It's not that hard. People seek out the fake news; the millionaires and billionaires are just providing slightly better versions of it. They could be doing really sophisticated propaganda but they just don't have to. People are pleased to believe the most outlandish lies if it affirms their egos. | | |
| ▲ | laserlight 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | It's not that hard when you have proper education, scientific practice, understanding that you don't have to succumb to the fear pumped by those in power, and surplus time and energy to put everything in perspective in a constantly changing world. Otherwise, I'm afraid it's difficult to break out of one's echo chamber. |
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| ▲ | treyd 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Corporates understand that a strong economy is important for the system to be viable long term and that some kind of middle class is a necessary part of it, which they can skim off the top of. Oligarchs don't care about that nearly as much, and are more acutely focused on accumulation of power and wealth and are happy to disassemble productive capacity and force the middle class down to an a working poor class in the process. | | |
| ▲ | Barrin92 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | It's basically the difference between "every one of my workers needs to be able to buy one of my cars" industrial Fordism and what Varoufakis coined techno-feudalism, which does not utilize markets or independent workers but tries to extract value from what are effectively serfs directly. Zuckerberg et al. are obviously emblematic of the latter. |
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| ▲ | markus_zhang 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I wouldn't say corporations and oligarchs are going to fight. I'd say elites infight all the time, but they all agree that the other humans are simply "human resources" and they have the common interests to extract as much value from those fellow humans as possible. Exactly the same model for pretty much all large countries, each with a bit of different "flavour" that the elites learned throughout the centuries, and conveniently serves as one of the topics to divide the human resources. | | |
| ▲ | koakuma-chan 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | I prefer “workforce” over “human resources,” and I believe lots of people voluntarily choose to remain a member of the workforce, as they would rather have a family and live a “simple” life than spend effort to become some kind of entrepreneur or politician. | | |
| ▲ | markus_zhang 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | Our preference is irrelevant. We are resources to them. I’d rather honestly acknowledge that. | | |
| ▲ | koakuma-chan 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | What I said doesn’t conflict with this, just highlighting that’s what people themselves want. |
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| ▲ | rixed 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Are they actually fighting? | |
| ▲ | lupusreal 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Why wouldn't they fight? Some level of conflict always occurs within all groups or affiliations. It would be completely unnatural for there to be no conflict. | |
| ▲ | danaris 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I would say that the distinction between the two groups is, roughly: "Corporates" are the leaders of the many large corporations in this country. They want broad protections for corporate power against labour, corporate profits, lowered regulations, etc. "Oligarchs" are the leaders of the few titanic corporations, like Bezos, Musk, and Zuckerberg. They want to become the zaibatsu of modern America, essentially being given total control over the economy divided up between them. There are many things they want that are in common (for instance, the removal of regulations), but that prime desire of the oligarchs is directly at odds with the continued existence and livelihoods of the corporates. |
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| ▲ | fny 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It's dangerous to make sloppy comparisons like that. Augustus seized all the levers of power to create the Roman Empire and even developed a cult-like following. Similarly, claiming there aren't two political camps is sloppy in the current environment. Corporates and oligarchs are a completely different animal, and they deserve treatment as such. They are not some homogenous, totalitarian entity: they're more akin to what Rome was before the Empire--a melange of senators fighting about everything while trying to stay rich. | | |
| ▲ | KaiserPro 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Augustus seized all the levers of power Octavian was given the levers of power by Julius Caesar. Pompey and Crassus teamed up with Caesar to breakdown the republic. They made huge amounts of cash doing it. | |
| ▲ | coliveira 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Even Augustus took a few years to complete his project. In the US this is going quite fast. | | |
| ▲ | speed_spread 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | I think we see it happening fast because right now it's just revealing of the power structures that were built over decades. |
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| ▲ | dimal 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Dangerous? What??? How on earth is that dangerous? Of all the insane rhetoric being spouted nowadays, making a historical comparison is dangerous? Can we all please stop calling ideas “harmful” or “dangerous” and just have plain, open debate? That’s what a republic depends on. | | |
| ▲ | mulmen 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | I think constantly repeating negativity that undermines faith in institutions and our ability to effect change is harmful because it’s self fulfilling. There. That’s an idea you can debate. |
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| ▲ | constantcrying 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | >and that it is reminiscent of the end of the Roman Empire What a totally ridiculous comparison. The roman empire always was an explicit a dictatorial state. Its end took hundreds of years of internal and external forces tearing it apart as coherent entity. Characterizing it as two factions fighting for power is just bizarre. | | |
| ▲ | greesil 9 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Maybe he meant the of the Roman Republic, like with the optimates and so on. | |
| ▲ | sevensor 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That’s far from accurate. Augustus positioned himself as the restorer of the Republic after a horrific period of civil war, and cobbled together his authority from existing Republican magistracies, especially the Tribune of the Plebs. The Julio-Claudians at least attempted to maintain the fiction that the Republic was still functioning. Explicitly dictatorial it wasn’t, although actually dictatorial it certainly was. | |
| ▲ | coliveira 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The end of the Roman Empire was due to a civil war, where the Church was one of the parties embraced by Constantin. |
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| ▲ | froh 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | yes. and: kleptocrats. "thieves govern" captures the into-my-pocket better than oligarchs "few govern". |
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| ▲ | EasyMark 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| >In the US we have this thing called free speech that expression is carrying a lot of water these days. Although libel laws in England are pretty tyrannical in a different way than the current rise of fascism and attempts to use government to hush dissent against the Trump regime . The current FCC chairman and Pam Bondi are trying to silence critics of Trump, VP is saying that trans people speaking out should be committed to insane asylums |
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| ▲ | constantcrying 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Free speech has always been about the government. Do you not think it is acceptable for companies to fire people for their speech? Should employers just have to keep silent and do nothing when their employees e.g. glorify violence, promote fascism or attack human rights? >Requiring non-disclosure in order to get a severance (or to get a settlement for abuse) is not an excuse for doing this. This seems very reasonable? If you want to attack your employer you are free to do so, why should they pay you for that? >More and more corporations are resorting to the predatory practice of abusing the court system to protect their hide their actions. What are you on about? Companies have always tried to get what they can, it is not some recent trend that companies go after their own (former) employees in court. |
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| ▲ | moregrist 9 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > This seems very reasonable? If you want to attack your employer you are free to do so, why should they pay you for that? The two issues I see here are: NDAs without a public-good exception and forced confidential arbitration. I think there should always be an exception to NDAs when the information is in the public good. I think it’s reasonable to disagree on where that line should be; that’s what legislation and court cases are for. Also, forcing the resolution of this to go through confidential arbitration hides the issues from the public, and doesn’t let us make good decisions on where that line should be. | | |
| ▲ | gruez 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | >I think there should always be an exception to NDAs when the information is in the public good. AFAIK that already sort of exists because NDAs doesn't cover you if you're subpoenaed, like if there was a congressional hearing. | | |
| ▲ | pseudalopex 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | A congressional hearing had the author's testimony because of this book. | | |
| ▲ | gruez 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Right, but if the book hasn't been written congress can still subpoena her to get her testimony and that wouldn't break the NDA. I agree having it in book form is more convenient, but it's not like if Zuckerberg burned down an orphanage and he got the only witness to sign a NDA he would get away with it. | | |
| ▲ | pseudalopex 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Right, but if the book hasn't been written congress can still subpoena her to get her testimony and that wouldn't break the NDA. Congress could have sought her testimony before the book and legal battle became news. They did not. > I agree having it in book form is more convenient, but it's not like if Zuckerberg burned down an orphanage and he got the only witness to sign a NDA he would get away with it. Pretending to agree with a weak claim I didn't make is a sign of bad faith. And do you believe public interest is limited to atrocities? | | |
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| ▲ | windexh8er 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > This seems very reasonable? If you want to attack your employer you are free to do so, why should they pay you for that? She wrote the book after she left. So, is it OK for someone to expose a company for illicit and illegal activities in this regard? And if not then why is it OK for these companies to use illicit or illegal tactics to silence former, or even, current employees? | | |
| ▲ | gruez 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | According to the article the gag order was part of her severance. So it's not as if she signed something before being employed, discovered something shady, and couldn't speak out. In this case, she saw something shady, signed an agreement not to say anything, but reneged on that agreement. I'm much less sympathetic to the latter than the former. |
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| ▲ | tenuousemphasis 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | EasyMark 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Disney can fire people anytime they like if that person isn't meeting company/contractual obligations. What is illegal and that doesn't seem to matter to the current regime is that the FCC chair is saying that major media outlets better watch their step if he (read Trump) doesn't like what they're saying, or they will lose their licenses (implied). Similar things are going on with Pam Bondi going after critics of Trump rather than doing her sworn duty of following the law and upholding the Constitution. | |
| ▲ | lmz 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] |
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