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Eddy_Viscosity2 12 hours ago

"voluntarily" is doing a lot of work there. I don't disagree with the facts here, but I do with this particular qualifier which implies a level of willingness to sign away rights was something that she (or anyone in that position) wanted. She was likely very strongly pressured to sign it with various threats and consequences if she didn't. So she did sign it, but lets not pretend her choices at that moment were many and/or equal when faced with the law team of a trillion dollar company.

chaosharmonic 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It's doing even more work when you're aware that, at one point, the NLRB had banned non-disparagement clauses in severances and employment agreements outright, stating that even offering these terms amounted to coercive behavior that prevented people from discussing their working conditions. [1]

[1] https://www.reuters.com/legal/us-labor-board-limits-gag-clau...

fsckboy 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

it has a lot of work to do yes, but is still slacking off at its job when she signs it voluntarily, takes the consideration, then violates it and pays no consideration in return.

7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
jordanb 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The book talks about the conditions when she was fired. She was suffering from life threatening medical problems from complications from a pregnancy. Not hard to see these terms as coerced given the medical and financial problems she was facing at the time.

crazygringo 10 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Can you elaborate on the financial problems she was facing? She seems to have been a highly paid Facebook exec who would have had great health insurance. And if her employment was in the US she could keep that insurance through COBRA for between 18 and 36 months.

Life threatening medical problems are obviously horrific and she has my full sympathies. But I'm having a tough time drawing a from that to "coercion" for someone who was a director at Facebook.

jordanb 10 hours ago | parent | next [-]

She reported not being particularly high paid compared to her peers. When she was hired Facebook didn't care at all about her area (government relations).

As that became more important her role grew but she was never really promoted.

She also was not well informed about how tech compensation works and negotiated poorly (no stock) she came from an NGO background in New Zealand.

Her salary was probably quite a bit more than the average American but she was living in expensive areas (DC and SV) and interacting with extremely wealthy people. At one point Sheryl Sandburg got annoyed that she was leaving work for childcare and told her to hire a live-in nanny. She was living paycheck-to-paycheck on a high income with no wealth accumulation (many such cases).

smsm42 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

How much is not high? I mean compared to bilionaires a lot of people are paupers, but what about compared to regular people?

AdrianB1 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[flagged]

crazygringo 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

OK, then honestly it's hard for me to have any sympathy for the idea that she was "coerced". She was being paid lots... but wasn't getting paid even more?

If you're an executive at Facebook, you should know how to research negotiation and compensation, and figure out a living situation where you're saving money. You're in the big leagues. If Sheryl expected her to be able to hire a full time nanny, then that's an excellent time to renegotiate a salary than can afford that.

If you're an entry-level worker who can't make ends meet in San Fran then of course I sympathize greatly! But if you're an executive at Facebook making enough money that you can even consider a full time nanny... you're not facing any level of "hardship" by which an offer of even more money in exchange for non-disparagement could be considered "coercion". Nobody is in poverty here. Nobody is going to wind up hungry or on the street.

giancarlostoro 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

COBRA means you pay the full cost of the insurance. So suddenly instead of paying $150 you are now seeing a $500 or more bill, especially if your employer is a major company that pays for all sorts of benefits. COBRA is a joke when you consider you just lost all source of income.

crazygringo 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The point is, you're not suddenly facing ruinous bankrupting medical expenses.

You're continuing your health insurance. You're paying for your insurance, not your medical care.

She was an executive at Facebook. If she hasn't saved enough for COBRA then I don't even know what to say.

tbrownaw 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

IIRC, part of the reason that so many countries have specific "here's money specifically for retirement" things (pensions, 401k here in the US) is that many people just don't plan far ahead very well.

crazygringo 9 hours ago | parent [-]

If entry-level and lower-paid workers aren't saving money then that's understandable. That's why these government programs exist.

If you're an executive at Facebook, I think you have the ability to plan things well. If you still can't save any money, at that point it's hard to see how it's not just your fault.

Arainach 9 hours ago | parent [-]

She wasn't an executive in the sense you're thinking and certainly wasn't hired as one. She was hired to work in an area Zuckerberg never cared about and never gave anywhere near sufficient resources to.

crazygringo 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

She's described as an executive and as a director in articles.

I don't know what other sense there is? And what possible relevance is there of the relationship between her role and what Zuck thought? I'm sure Zuck doesn't care much about accounting or HR either. Lots of well paid executives work in areas of corporations that aren't the founder's main focus. That's the kind of problem most people would love to have.

Arainach 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Directing an area is very different from the title (or compensation) of Director, and it's certainly not equivalent to Director in a tech organization. SWW was hired as "Manager of Global Public Policy" but the book never indicates that she ever has reports or is a manager in that sense, which is generally a requirement to be understood or perceived as a "Director".

If you're surprised media articles don't ask questions and get basic facts wrong, go read any article about a topic you have direct experience with.

crazygringo 8 hours ago | parent [-]

The articles don't seem to have gotten any basic facts wrong.

She had director in her title and reported directly to a vice president, Joel Kaplan, who is now a C-level officer. She managed staff.

That's seriously high up in the corporate hierarchy at Facebook. Feel free to read more:

"She managed a growing staff and oversaw government relations for entire continents, including Asia and South America. She reported to corporate vice presidents and had direct contact with Chief Executive Mark Zuckerberg and Sheryl Sandberg, then the chief operating officer."

https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/social-media/facebook-alleges-h...

So again, I don't what you mean by "wasn't an executive in the sense you're thinking". She's seems to be exactly an executive in the sense that everyone thinks.

laserlight 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> She's described as an executive and as a director in articles.

I once met with a person who used to be a vice president in a major US bank. I was impressed, until much later when I discovered that there were three thousand “vice presidents” in that bank.

modeless 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

VP is a low rank at a bank but a high rank at Meta. I would be very surprised if anyone at Meta with VP in their title made less than $1M total compensation. "Director" at Meta is also a high rank.

aix1 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

In investment banking, VP is not a senior title (speaking from personal experience :)).

The exact level hierarchy varies from bank to bank, but typically runs something like

Analyst - Associate - (Associate VP) - VP - Director/Executive Director/Senior VP - Managing Director

smsm42 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The book describes Zuckerberg personally thanking her, repeatedly, for her work. It doen't look like something he didn't care about.

esseph 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Even with insurance you can still easily get 6 figure medical bills. They deny coverage for real problems all the time.

kg 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> The point is, you're not suddenly facing ruinous bankrupting medical expenses.

This is a powerful assumption given how expensive medicine is in the US - even with insurance - and how often people in their adulthood need medical treatment.

queenkjuul 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'm sorry, no income and >$1000/mo insurance premiums for life saving care absolutely does seem like potentially ruinous medical expense

teaearlgraycold 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I worked at Google as an L4 for a little over one year and had no trouble paying the COBRA afterwards.

lokar 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

And you pay 102% of what the plan costs, and Meta has a truly deluxe plan, the COBRA fee is enormous

sporkxrocket 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If you have a family COBRA will be $2k-3k a month.

loeg 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Again, something that could be a hardship for a junior employee, but she was a director.

fsckboy 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

when you are fired, you are free to disparage your former employer. she was not free to do that because she signed away that right, and you can only sign away something in exchange for something, which she obviously took.

when you don't mention or acknowledge this aspect, you are not making a convincing argument. perhaps they gave her a very attractive severance package, and you don't know that they didn't, so how can you draw a conclusion?

life threatening health problems is not a free pass to "i get whatever i want", not for me, not for you, and not for her, although we know that in the world of Karens it is an entitlement.

mbostleman 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What’s likely is that she was offered more generous compensation in return for things this. This is pretty standard stuff. What “threats and consequences” are you suggesting?

cmiles74 9 hours ago | parent [-]

Any documentation on this would be great!

jwsteigerwalt 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In all likelihood the “voluntary” part was an exchange for accelerated stock vesting or similar. Could have walked away without that financial gain, signed the non-disparagement agreement to walk with the stock vested.

zukzuk 10 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Further up in this thread someone remarked that she did not receive any equity as part of her original compensation.

thayne 8 hours ago | parent [-]

From the article it sounds like it was a condition of a severance package.

KaiserPro 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> was an exchange for accelerated stock vesting or similar.

Meta doesn't do that. Especially if you are yeeted. You'll get 6 months wage at best.

smsm42 3 hours ago | parent [-]

6 months of senior executive wages is nothing to sneeze at.

jwsteigerwalt 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Or severance in the form of X months or weeks of salary and benefits.

lttlrck 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

All true but she still signed the document, and later acted against the agreement with the very same trillion dollar company.

lokar 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Agreements like that should be considered unenforceable

jsnell 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

But then Facebook would have had no incentive to offer the agreement to her. And she must have been very happy with what she got in the deal, given she gave up the option of talking about all the apparently horrible misdeeds she witnessed while they were still fresh, rather than a decade later.

Kranar 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Then she would get no money either.

lokar 8 hours ago | parent [-]

I don't think that's true in most situations. I think most companies would still pay a severance out of a general effort to smooth things over, and some sense of social loyalties.

And some aspects of the agreement would be fine. No spilling actual business relevant secrets, nothing that would count as libel or slander, etc.

smsm42 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Nope, they'd have security show you the door and maybe threaten to sue you into the ground if you talk. They choose mkney because money is easier, but if you take this option away, you just get the stick and no carrot.

Kranar 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You think a business pays money out of a sense of "social loyalty"?

Companies don't need to offer severance to prevent ex employees from spilling business secrets, doing so is a criminal offense.

lokar 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Companies are people, many people have positive feelings towards co-workers and people like them

smsm42 2 hours ago | parent [-]

True but not the ones who will be firing you. At least not in big corp, it would be some HR worker who doesn't know you from Adam and couldn't care less about you.

Ekaros 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Part of smoothing things over is implicit of explicit understanding that employee also smooths things over that is shut up after receiving the bribe.

hvb2 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

A company can craft whatever document they want. That doesn't make them legal. The laws of the jurisdiction they're in always beat whatever you're signing.

Best example in software are non competes.

A company can make you sign something that doesn't allow you to do any software development when you're a developer. You can sign that today then do the opposite tomorrow because that's just against the law.

See:

https://news.bloomberglaw.com/daily-labor-report/did-califor...

BeFlatXIII 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Petulant arguments are why RFK needs to find the cure.

smsm42 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

How it's not voluntary? She didn't face prison if she didn't sign, she faced having less money. She chose more money. What other threat coukd facebook apply beyond not paying severance?

crazygringo 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> She was likely very strongly pressured to sign it with various threats and consequences if she didn't.

Like what? If it's something you sign when you leave, it generally comes down to whether you want some level of severance payments/accelerated vesting or not, even when you're fired (when you're at the executive level).

Basically, the company says: if you agree not to sue us or disparage us, here's a bunch of money.

There are no threats. The consequence is, if you don't sign, you don't get the extra money. It's completely and entirely voluntary.

She was a highly paid executive who chose to get even more money in exchange for keeping her mouth shut. Now I think it's great she wrote the book, I love transparency. But nobody can be surprised Facebook is taking legal action when she presumably took their money under an agreement not to disparage. Nobody made her take the extra money.

amrocha 9 hours ago | parent [-]

Remember this next time you have cancer and get fired, and then have the option to “voluntarily” sign something to keep receiving money until hopefully you’re well enough to look for a new job.

crazygringo 9 hours ago | parent [-]

She had world-class health insurance. You build up savings. You collect unemployment. Your spouse continues working. These are all things to help you.

She wasn't homeless, on the street, alone, without skills or education, where she had no choice. Let's keep things in perspective here.

So yes, it is absolutely voluntarily to sign something like that. Otherwise, what does taking responsibility for your actions even mean?

__turbobrew__ 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I don’t really feel bad for the author. Most of these separation agreements - especially at higher levels - are generous golden parachutes with the stipulation that you don’t do damaging things like working for a competitor (while on garden leave) or disparage the company.

I am not aware of their separation agreement being published, but you have to be a special type of stupid to work for Facebook as an exec, get a $500k advance on a book you wrote about Meta, and then go bankrupt. From the limited information I have I can see why Facebook fired her.

hshdhdhj4444 10 hours ago | parent [-]

You don’t need to feel bad for the author.

You need to feel afraid for the ability for a corporation to so easily get you to surrender your own fundamental rights.

It’s not a coincidence you rarely hear stories like this in Scandinavian or even broader European countries because they have basic safety nets that mean you don’t need to sign away your rights in order to just live peacefully.

cmiles74 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

They are using the same kind of exit NDA used to coerce OpenAI employees who left that organization. We should all be afraid for ourselves as these organizations turn into black boxes where the only people who could speak out feel they cannot. This thing where you stop working for a company but they can still penalize you financially if they don’t like your annual “post-employee performance” evaluations is Kafka-esque.

https://www.reuters.com/technology/openai-whistleblowers-ask...

Just to clarify, OpenAI did change their agreement (to some degree) after the SEC put pressure on them. In Facebook’s case the SEC has been notably silent despite the calls from US senators (AFAICT).

__turbobrew__ 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Facebook execs need safety nets now?

I am all for safety nets, and I actually live in a country with stronger safety nets than the USA, but I still don’t feel sorry for the author who basically has had every card to be extremely wealthy and squandered it.

Also realize that it isn’t private companies job to fix the broken social system in the USA, usually separation agreements for high paid employees offer severance well above and beyond the legal requirements (I have seen 3 months to a year including accelerated vesting in some cases), and a condition of accepting those benefits above and beyond the laws is you don’t disparage your employer. If you don’t accept the agreement you get the bare minimum according to the laws but you are then not bound to the disparage clauses.

queenkjuul 6 hours ago | parent [-]

There is no legally required severance in the US, the "bare minimum" is nothing.

__turbobrew__ 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Ok, so the fact that the USA has no laws for severance is the problem, not the fact that companies who pay severance above and beyond what is required of them comes with strings attached. If severance was legally mandated people could tell the company to pound sand when they push an exit contract on you.

It blew my USA colleagues when I told them I can take over a year of legally mandated parental leave and there is nothing the company can do about it.

huflungdung 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]