| Well, they used to be, but the modern industrial age needed institutions that could train workers - and universities fit the bill. I don’t think it’s possible to detach the credential aspect from universities without a parallel work-focused system existing, and even then, the prestige of universities will still mean that the wealthy and privileged will prefer universities, which means that that prestige will trickle down to everyone else. The only real solution IMO is to support institutions like St. John’s [1] and others that are explicitly not career-focused, and work on making similar institutions affordable and accessible. There’s no real reason why someone can’t start a student-operated (to keep costs down) university that focuses on the liberal arts, classics, mathematics, etc. that is affordable enough for the average person. I suspect the main problem is the lack of prestige and precariousness of the economy at large. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._John%27s_College_(Annapoli... |
| I think this is also a specific difference between germanic education and english/us education. Does the US not have something like a fachhochschule?
A institute where peoeple are trained for specific fields/jobs?
This systems seems to exist in most european countries that i know of, and it is specifically focussed on education related to a specific field or career.
(this is also is there for different levels of practicality) for instance, you have also have schools for things like construction workers, hairdressers, etc etc. University's are more seem as a very high level of education, but which does not train one for a specific job. |
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| ▲ | keiferski 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | There are schools like this, called various things like “technical schools” or “vocational schools.” But they tend to be looked down upon by the American middle class and higher; e.g., the average parent wants their kid to go to college, any college, over a vocational school. In other words, vocational schools are (unfortunately) associated with people that don’t do well in traditional school. From what I understand Germany is much less classist in this regard. | | |
| ▲ | analog31 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I recently talked with a German exchange student who is attending our local high school for a year. She said that German students take an exam that sorts them into different levels of high schools. If this is the case, then it would be very hard to prevent the same sorting from taking on a social class dimension. But I also think we mythologize the trades. I can't remember a HN thread about higher education that didn't extol the virtues of trade school while dismissing college education as a scam. But are the trades really that wonderful? The tradespeople I've met, if they're my age, their bodies have been destroyed, or they've gotten out of the trades. Many of the trades are cyclic, tied to the construction cycle. Many involve mostly small family-owned businesses that on the one hand greatly favor family members, and on the other, are exempt from certain labor laws such as OSHA reporting. Most are "not on the radar" of EEOC etc. The good things about the trades are if you're lucky enough to get into one of the bigger employers, that tend to be more highly regulated. My knee jerk reaction is that we could get more people into the trades if we addressed real issues that affect the working class: Health care, retirement, workplace safety, and so forth. | |
| ▲ | HK-NC 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I read a book about post WW2 England that talked about Germany and the fachhochschules, and that England had nothing like it until the 70s(?) whereas they'd been in Germany for over fifty years already at least. It also talked aboit the different cultures within coal mines between the countries and the impact that had on coal production. The English worker had an "us and them" attitude between the labourer and the site manager, whereas the germans saw themselves as parts of a larger machine altogether. Guessing whatever this attitude is, is why these schools are looked down on in the UK.
This shitty attitude could very well be a remnant of the Norman invasion of Britain. We still have a north south divide and I naturally find myself "code switching" and replacing words with more cumbersome ones of French origin when speaking to southerners.
Apologies for this comment being so loose and rambling. | |
| ▲ | gjgtcbkj 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | People always say these schools are “looked down on” and rightly so they are mostly scams. Virtually all tradespeople like this have relatives in that trade. The idea these school would actually be equivalent to a college is laughable. | | |
| ▲ | StefanBatory 10 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | For us in Poland we have normal high schools, technikum - which is similar, but year longer and you are trained in a job, and zawodówka - which is vocational. And issue with them is not the school itself, but the type of teenagers that attend them. As much as it pains me, for zawodówka schools - you will get the most demotivated people. And even if you really just want to be trained, you will get into an environment that will destroy you. I wonder how Germans are faring with this. | | |
| ▲ | macbr 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | A Fachhochschule (Wikipedia calls them "university of applied sciences") in Germany is very similar to a university but as they're less research oriented and usually (with some notable exceptions) don't have the ability to grant doctoral degrees. AFAIK none have the permission to grant the ability to become professor (Habilitation). They also usually have a limited selection of subjects. There are also Technische Universitäten (Technical University) which are "proper" universities with the ability to grant doctorates and the ability to become professor. So Fachhochschulen are a separate thing from both Berufsschule (vocational school) and universities. | | |
| ▲ | StefanBatory 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | Sorry, I wrote it in a confusing way because I thought of something else - so that's on me for confusion. I was thinking of high school, not uni itself. I'm myself also from a technical university equivalent in Poland. |
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| ▲ | quickthrowman 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The trades are changing, there’s such a lack of workers that the old school nepotism in skilled trades can’t supply enough bodies to fill the demand so unions are recruiting more widely, there are first year electrical apprentices who have never used a drill, for instance. There are also a ton of public contracts that have labor force participation goals for women and minorities, who are being actively recruited. In the old days, getting an apprenticeship was more of a ‘who you know’ kind of thing (which still exists, of course, I know multiple people who have sat on the local apprenticeship interview committee), and two years of trade school was what you did prior to starting. Today, there’s a shortage of labor in all of the skilled trades, so the unions have taken it on themselves to provide the trade school education concurrently with the apprenticeship. In the electrical union (IBEW), apprentices go to school one day a week for twenty weeks a year, for five years. Pipefitters, sheet metal workers, and plumbers have similar programs. This benefits both the apprentice, who doesn’t get paid to go to school by the union but they also don’t have to pay for their education, and the union, which is able to filter and train candidates directly instead of relying on a third party to do it. I’m an electrical project manager who has never been an electrician and I never went to trade school so it’s definitely possible to work in the industry without any formal training, but I’m definitely the exception at my employer. |
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