| ▲ | What We Can Learn from Nordic Socialism(jacobin.com) |
| 20 points by PaulHoule 2 hours ago | 20 comments |
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| ▲ | CyMonk 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| I often wish I lived in a world where people understood that social democracy, socialism, Marxism, and communism are not synonyms. |
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| ▲ | jimbokun 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Instead, following and citing the Marxist sociologist Erik Olin Wright who argued much the same, Dragsted proposes that societies are hybrids, frequently containing noncapitalist elements — cooperatives, public institutions, solidaristic welfare systems — even under capitalism. Is this controversial on the left? |
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| ▲ | spwa4 27 minutes ago | parent [-] | | That depends. Are there literal seas of oil money available in a modern democracy, allowing to do all these programs and things without requiring free or very cheap labor from socialists? If the answer is no, then it's very controversial. | | |
| ▲ | pploug 16 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Of the scandinavian countries, only Norway has money, Dragsted is danish. |
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| ▲ | logscope 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Socialism works on paper and maybe the first couple of years, but we who are living with it now can clearly see the downsides. I would prefer capitalism over socialism and communism and to be honest I now believe socialism is the road that leads to communism in the end, it just take longer time to get there. If you want to see how we have progressed over time time please watch the debate between Olof Pamle and Thorbjörn Fälldin from 1982 and compare that to any "modern" debate. Same topics, same "solutions". |
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| ▲ | jghn 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | What country do you live in where you're experiencing living with socialism? | | |
| ▲ | brabel an hour ago | parent [-] | | The examples given are from Sweden, so I guess that's where they're from. I live in Sweden and this is absolutely not a socialist country. Capitalism is very strong here, you're mostly free to invest capital in whatever you want with many ways to avoid taxes, just like in the USA, for example. There's higher taxes for the average, salaried person (though it's not at the highest levels compared with similar OECD countries[1]), but for investors, it's not so bad. Also, salaries vary wildly between professions, lots of things, like rail lines, which are usually thought of as government concerns are privatized, neighbourhoods are more and more unequal (in Stockholm, you can go from a place where the humblest dettached house costs above 12 million SEK - around 1.3 million USD) to another where the starting price is more like 3 million SEK without travelling very far). It's definitely not "the same" everywhere (segregation based on ethnicity is crazy high, but that's another story). So, I find it hard to consider Sweden to be anything like what you would associate with socialism (the only "socialist" thing in my opinion is the sales of alcohol - which is monopolized by the Government - but even that started opening up recently as they allow producers to started selling directly to the public from their production locations - like breweries). [1] https://www.oecd.org/content/dam/oecd/en/topics/policy-issue... | | |
| ▲ | jghn 6 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | > I live in Sweden and this is absolutely not a socialist country. This is where I was going with my question. It seems unlikely that they live in a truly socialist environment | |
| ▲ | PaulHoule an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | The difference is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy as opposed to the "workers control the means of production" idea of Marx, Lenin and such. You tax individuals and businesses and use those provide certain services. There's also the idea that you have legislation to protect workers (minimum wage, 40 hour week), consumers (air bags in cars) and the environment (no lead in gas.) Other than that you let capitalists do what they do best. What I can't get is that so many people get so angry at the idea that poor people, or at least poor people younger than 65, could have access to health care in the US. |
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| ▲ | lawlessone 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Capitalism work on paper too, lots of competition everyone wins but i now believe is the road that leads oligarchy in the end, it just take longer time to get there. |
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| ▲ | spwa4 30 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The real thing you can learn from Nordic Socialism: big government programs are easy with oil revenues, where you get goods and services from foreigners with very little effort on the part of your own citizens. At that point then everyone takes credit for how well that all works. This is like pointing out that Bill Gates' household proves how communism works on a small scale. |
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| ▲ | pploug 12 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Only norway has significant oil revenue - sweden and denmark specifically are primarily economies driven by a highly educated workforce and well regulated job markets - Lego, Novo, Maersk are all exemples of this kinds of companies depending on those socalled big government programmes to produce highly educated and specialised workers. | |
| ▲ | throwaway0236 19 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | > big government programs are easy with oil revenues Sweden doesn't have much oil revenues as far as I know |
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| ▲ | cindyllm an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | os2warp5 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Remove their fish and oil and see 5 years span |
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| ▲ | whirlwin 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| For Norwegian situation, I can recommend the book "The country that got too rich" which in fact is very accurate. Socialism works to a point but if it continues to spiral into more aggressive socialism you will end up in a much worse place for everyone, this is where Norway is heading the moment unfortunately even though we are a social democracy on paper. |
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| ▲ | karmakurtisaani 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | That sounds vaguely terrifying! Seriously tho, care to elaborate? | | |
| ▲ | throwaway0236 an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | The book has some valid points when it states that the government has too much money and does not need to make the hard prioritizations. It has however been heavily criticized. It seems like he had a point to prove and found numbers that fit with his view, and not a neutral description. He also seems to ignore that the trends he points to, also exists in other countries. That said, he does raise some valid concerns. The number of employees in the public sector grows, even under conservative governments. Part of the reason is that Norway can afford it at the moment. Another reason is that the number of rules and regulations increases, and the government needs more people to enforce them. The latter is mostly a political issue, and something that also happens in countries that are not wealthy. The author's solution is to reduce taxes and cut public spending. | |
| ▲ | whirlwin an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | The socialists’ rallying cry has long been, “Finally, it’s ordinary people’s time.”
But in reality, ordinary people have seen their wealth steadily decline, while the state has only grown fatter and richer.
The slogan should be more honest: “It’s the state’s time now.” Now the state has more employees and will continue growing to attain more power, and thereby more voters. Having worse public services than 10 years ago while the spending has increased drastically is a bad sign. That being said, it'll have to get drastically worse before ordinary people realize where their money went, and then it might shift |
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