| ▲ | fullshark a day ago |
| Cause the median developer is now someone who went into it for the money. It's what happens when there's no other comparable growth careers/opportunities available. |
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| ▲ | SketchySeaBeast a day ago | parent | next [-] |
| I love computers, but I'm tired. I spend all day doing stand-ups and scrum and SAFE and then trying to build microservices that talk to other microservices that other teams have built and I just want to get it done with the minimal amount of explosions and call it a day. I can't afford to tinker at my job, and I have no energy at night. I made my hobby my job and it killed it. |
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| ▲ | geodel a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Yes I think your experience sums up about >95% of all dev experience. I am doing about same thing as you for last 8-10 years or so. I guess it is about same time where Agile took hold of IT/Software industry. Apart from may be few core infrastructure primitives at public Cloud providers most of IT stuff today is API calling API calling API and so on. It will be the case until Human is Out Of Loop from most of the IT work. | | |
| ▲ | cybwraith a day ago | parent | next [-] | | I agree. My enjoyment of my career as a software developer dropped dramatically about 10-15 years ago when "agile" started taking off. Even in some of the companies I worked at that didn't actually use it, it was mentioned in pitches by sales to show how modern we were and then used as an excuse to shoehorn in all kinds of random features that made no sense. | |
| ▲ | izacus a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I very much doubt more than a low 10s % of companies do scrum or safe. | | |
| ▲ | AlexandrB a day ago | parent | next [-] | | And it's unlikely that more than a low 1s% of companies do agile as originally conceived. "Agile" has become everything it was originally opposed to: tons of process, specialized roles that have nothing to do with development (scrum masters), little to no direct communication with customers (at least in the places where I've worked). The dominant tool for doing "Agile" (Jira) says it all - a slow, heavy, bug tracking system with everything and the kitchen sink in terms of features often imposed on teams from the top down. Very "agile" indeed. | | |
| ▲ | SketchySeaBeast a day ago | parent [-] | | I can 100% guarantee you my SAFe company still thinks of themselves as Agile. Sure, we just planned out what were doing in every sprint for the next quarter, but we still do the ceremonies, and that's what's important, right? |
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| ▲ | cybwraith a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I have no metrics on this, but I've been seeing/hearing of scrum popping up in all sorts of places, not just in software but in other firms where it doesn't belong. For example, my relative works in a chemical engineering firm and they use scrum. A friend of mine is in another flavor of engineering field and they use scrum as well. The sad truth is agile/scrum has really lost the plot in most places and is mostly used as a way to justify micromanagement of developers (or other roles) and lack of proper long term planning. | |
| ▲ | SketchySeaBeast a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | I would bet that the majority of companies with more than couple of devs do some sort of "agile" for dev work. |
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| ▲ | pixl97 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | I mean computerization has always been about automation. There are a massive number of tasks of humanity that have been automated or mechanized away and more will continue to do so in the future. |
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| ▲ | maerF0x0 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > stand-ups and scrum and SAFE Honestly some of my best jobs were at places that had a nicely balanced practice in place and the backbone to remind execs that if they interrupt makers daily with new shiny asks they will in effect get nothing (because nothing would ever be completed)... But obviously we can both have worked at places with those labels with vastly different implementations and thus experiences :) | |
| ▲ | sherburt3 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I was at the same place you are for a while until I realized my obsession with doing everything "right" was killing my enjoyment of programming. I read through Let Over Lambda a couple of months ago and was blown away at how deeply unmaintainable some of his code examples are, but I got inspired to start letting myself do weird unmaintainable shit while programming instead of constantly acting like my code has to pass a code review and I've found its a lot more fun. | |
| ▲ | epolanski a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This is a feature, not a bug. Any non-small company has plenty of people that need to justify their salaries. Meetings is one of the most effective ways to actually pretend to be working. | |
| ▲ | stalfosknight a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This right here is how I feel about this too. I used to have a lot more mental bandwidth and energy to be "curious" and to tinker once upon a time. But now the world is so literally and figuratively on fire and every executive is so rabidly frothing at the mouth over AI that now I just want things to "just work" with the least amount of bullshit so I can just go home on time and forget about work until the next business day. I just want this fucked decade to be over already. | | |
| ▲ | SketchySeaBeast a day ago | parent [-] | | While I want that too, I have no illusions that the next decade will be better. | | |
| ▲ | stalfosknight a day ago | parent [-] | | While I do agree things can always be worse (and seem to want to continue to be worse), I think there has to be a rock bottom of sorts past which the unwashed masses will simply not tolerate. Maybe that's what's left of my optimism talking. |
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| ▲ | akdev1l a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Interesting. for me it feels like I have to spend all day fighting with folks who are constantly “holding it wrong” and using libraries and frameworks in really weird/buggy ways who then seem completely uninterested in learning. In my free time I love working on my own projects because I don’t have to deal with this bullshit and I can just craft things finely without any external pressure. | |
| ▲ | throwawaysleep a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | To be candid, even though my jobs have time to tinker, I don’t want to fight with Product or Management to get improvements into prod. Took me half a year to get them to value Sentry, lol. I’ll just collect my check and go do something else. | | |
| ▲ | whstl a day ago | parent [-] | | Exactly the situation in pretty much every company I worked at in the last 10 years. Fighting the Product Manager, fighting the Designer, sometimes even fighting some micromanaging stakeholder that won't leave you alone. It's definitely fights I can win, but do I even have the energy anymore? Development work involves more than meets the eye. While there are some folks who understand the technical intricacies, it's tiring having to join discussions you know won't go anywhere. I wish it was 2000-2010 again, when my biggest problems were Sales promising features we don't have and then having fun with the other devs coding it. |
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| ▲ | frollogaston a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | At least you're not sitting there patching Y2K bugs | |
| ▲ | sharts a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Exactly the same sentiment here. | |
| ▲ | varispeed a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | If you don't have energy, then you are doing too much. Pace yourself. If you think something can be delivered in 5 days, say it needs 10 days. Otherwise this is just a road to burnout and exploitation. World will not end if project is delayed by few weeks. You get time for your own tinkering (never tinker on company stuff, even if that would improve things, unless you are shareholder). | | |
| ▲ | skydhash a day ago | parent [-] | | This so much. When there’s a real urgency, you will know it (aka the whole team will be brought in). A good pace (as in not ruining your mental health) is feasible. |
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| ▲ | downrightmike a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The larger the environment, the more brain power it takes. Microservices didn't help with that | |
| ▲ | xyst a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | damn this was me for a few years. I hate corporate work environments so much. Then they hire bottom of the barrel contractors and expect you to get them up to speed in less than a week or so. Final straw for me was RTO. Silently quitting and getting my ticket punched (laid off) was the best thing for me. | | |
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| ▲ | klooney a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Housing inflation also really cuts down on everyone's ability to not be mercenary |
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| ▲ | davidw a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Oh, I am so here for "housing theory of everything" comments! That is, in my other comment on this post, precisely my "interest in local politics". Working on fixing our housing shortage has felt extremely meaningful to me. I'd like to find some of that idealism in software again. | | |
| ▲ | gia_ferrari a day ago | parent [-] | | There are current efforts along these lines! For example, permitting is a huge bottleneck - software could be part of the solution (carefully and thoughtfully integrated, of course). Disclosure: I work at govstream.ai - we work in this space [we're hiring!] | | |
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| ▲ | taurath a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This is the root of it all. 8-10 years of experience with an above average pay rate means you can just start to afford a starter home in any of the tech hubs. | | |
| ▲ | mothballed a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Rent a shoebox in a tech hub, save enough for a house in flyover country, then become a plumber there or something if remote is dead. | |
| ▲ | varispeed a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | That sounds dystopian. If you are a chicken with 5 years of experience laying eggs, you can just start to afford your own cage on the farm. | | |
| ▲ | davidw a day ago | parent [-] | | It is super bleak: yeah, as a software person, you can think about what it would take to afford a home. As a teacher or many other professions? Forget about it. You need to either marry someone with a more lucrative career, or move somewhere more affordable. | | |
| ▲ | taurath a day ago | parent [-] | | Yes exactly. There is a huge amount of people going into software development so they can have the basic security of owning their own dwelling. Prices have gone up even in non tech hubs. Home pricing vs what people earn is the reason for so much destitution in this country, and so many people are locked in its a complete non-issue for them, or a benefit. |
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| ▲ | Hammershaft a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The single biggest determinant of people's cost of living, and the single biggest driver of backsliding living standards in many of the most productive cities in the US. | |
| ▲ | emporas a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | When math starts falling from the sky, generated by AI of course and proved with theorem provers, then everything will start falling from the sky. There will be a way to have more houses than anyone would ever need, for every person on the planet. | |
| ▲ | varispeed a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | It's not just housing. Imagine you want to start a business. There is not much commercial property available and if there is something, it is too expensive and wildly taxed. | | |
| ▲ | mothballed a day ago | parent [-] | | I was once told a story by an Argentinian. They have a business tax rate above 106% of profit[]. That is it is illegal for a business to make a profit. Yet there is apparently a video out there of a black market cart seller selling wares right in front of the Argentine tax office, totally unbothered. It made me wonder if this was just an allegory of what's in store for us. [] https://archive.doingbusiness.org/content/dam/doingBusiness/... | | |
| ▲ | zipy124 a day ago | parent [-] | | That number is not tax as a percent of profit like corporation Tax, but includes all contributions. For example 23.5 from that number is just social security paid by the company. In other developed countries like the UK we also have those sort of taxes (at 15% of pay in the UK). It is misleading of the report to give this number as a % of profit since then if a company makes no profit, it technically has an infinite tax rate, despite the fact the tax owed does not depend on the profit. |
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| ▲ | Scubabear68 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Agree, the money is the key here. I got started in the 1980s, and super-curious and technical people were the norm. We were incredibly strongly attracted to computers. The first real growth in computers in that kind of era was Wall Street and banks. Wall Street in particular started paying huge bonuses to developers because it was clear that software could make huge piles of money. Then we started seeing more people joining in for the money who were not necessarily passionate about technology. Then came the dot com era and bust, and then the rise of social media, FAANG, and absurd corporate valuations allowing ridiculous total comp to developers, and the needle moved even more towards money. The net result is the curious and the passionate are still here, but our numbers are massively diluted. I come places like here to find that passionate niche. |
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| ▲ | goalieca a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| In defence, it's not just the developer. Every tech company seems to be copying the FAANG template of constantly having to prove your value and looking over your shoulder. There's no more "tenure" if you want to call it that. We've gone like academia where it's publish or perish and now everyone games the system to keep their luxury jobs. |
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| ▲ | hk1337 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > It's what happens when there's no other comparable growth careers/opportunities available. That's not entirely true. We (society, definitely US) pushed going to college HARD for the last 3-4 decades and glamorizing how much money you'll make. Now, we have an overabundance of people with college degrees and thousands of dollars in debt to those degrees. There's plenty of career paths where you could make decent money that don't require a college degree. We should have been pushing people to figure out what they wanted to do, not "Make lots of money", and figure out the path that gets them there. |
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| ▲ | downrightmike a day ago | parent | next [-] | | We did push people into what they wanted to do: make money. The sad reality is that "everyone learn to code" was by and large a marketing distraction from the severe structural unemployment the fast and loose economy is in. No a coal miner can't just learn to code and get a job in WV, certainly not 1,000's of other miner sin the same position, not can the millions of people that corporate laid off over those same decades. Coding was a way out of poverty, but for most people it was just a distraction to keep them from seeing how bad the economy is. Americans are poor: PNC Bank's annual Financial Wellness in the Workplace Report shows that 67 percent of workers now say they are living paycheck to paycheck, up from 63 percent in 2024. https://www.newsweek.com/2025-rise-americans-living-paycheck... | |
| ▲ | _DeadFred_ a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | We should have figured out how that get some of the benefits of productivity gains to go to workers. We were promised a rising tide lifts all ships, but now that the tide rose and is started to go back out, those that promised didn't deliver but keeping hoping we won't notice. | | |
| ▲ | pixl97 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | You're acting like it's something we don't have a solution for... that's not the issue, it's about insuring the investor class from winning capitalism and owning everything. | |
| ▲ | bpt3 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Do you honestly believe that workers received 0% of the productivity gains over the last 40+ years? It's wild how this site has turned into reddit over the last couple years. |
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| ▲ | JohnMakin a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| You say this as if it is a negative connotation and it seems to be ignoring realities of the modern world. My first trip through college I studied business and then the economy collapsed. Most people my age eeked their way through menial jobs (like me) and survived, found a way to break through, or, (like me) went back to school years later when the economy improved to try to find another opportunity. For me the choices were CS or nursing at that time, and I have always been good at math and with computers, so I chose that. I wouldn't say I ever "loved" development, especially not the current corporate flavor of it. I've had some side projects when I get time and energy. But there's never really been a point in my life where I could ever have afforded getting the level of expertise I possess now just for the "curiosity" of it. Not everyone has a trust fund or safety nets. |
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| ▲ | epolanski a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This so much. I interviewed many people from top universities and they absolutely scream "I couldn't care less about the field, I'm just here to maximize the compensation". At the same time I get 19 year old self taught kids who are miles better at programming, learning and are genuinely passionate. |
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| ▲ | candiddevmike a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The people who hated thinking about and writing code think everyone else does (or should) too. Unfortunately these folks manipulated their way into management. |
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| ▲ | Sohcahtoa82 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I would often say that learning to code is a shortcut to six-figure salaries and a middle-class lifestyle. Unfortunately this is the consequence. |
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| ▲ | huffer a day ago | parent | next [-] | | So if only you could have kept your mouth shut, this would have never happened.. Burn the witch! | |
| ▲ | fuzzfactor a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | And it's all a consequence of the dollar being so worthless by now that you need a six-figure income and still may not be able to afford a middle-class lifestyle in a growing number of places any more :\ |
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| ▲ | taude a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Exactly what the OP is saying.... This has been happening since the 2008 financial crash when a lot of people would have normally gone into careers on Wall Street, but the shrinking Wall Street job market led people into tech as a high-performant, decent paying career.....
(U.S. biased opinion, of course) |
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| ▲ | kilroy123 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| While that is true, there is more to it than that. Some people _really_ do like coding and want to build cool shit. Just the bar is so high now, so much competition, so many cargo culting startups that only do bad leetcode interviewing. It's very hard to both find and get hired at places that want more than a coding monkey to just blindly move Jira tickets. |
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| ▲ | varispeed a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Don't know about other countries, but here in the UK there is no longer money in the development. Subsequent governments turned the profession into the captive market, where you can only realistically work for corporations who fix the wages by following so called "market rates" and you cannot create your own job if you disagree with the rates. |
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| ▲ | FredPret a day ago | parent | next [-] | | I was always under the impression that high level UK engineers tend to become freelance consultants so as to get paid an appropriate amount - is this not true (anymore)? | | |
| ▲ | zipy124 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | This used to be the case, but now with IR35 rules you are generally treated as an employee for tax purposes not a business, which heavily complicates the situation. This in turn brought down expected rates to the point where most would rather the employment option since the risk of being self employed no longer came with a substantial reward. | |
| ▲ | colesantiago a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | This is becoming less true due to the current and incoming taxes that are going to rise in the UK. Many consultant friends I know and business owners have moved away from the UK to low tax areas in Portugal or UAE. |
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| ▲ | hshshshshsh a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Tons of high paying jobs in FAANG and similar in London. What are you even talking about? | | |
| ▲ | zipy124 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Median pay for a dev in London is about £60-65k(a out $87,000). This isn't that high given the cost of living in the city, with your average shared flat with a few roommates going at about £1k a month nowadays. Add in that you'll be hitting the marginal tax rate of 40% plus 9% student loan tax and about 8% national insurance (ok income under 4k a month) and you don't end up with that much to live on. The average university grad would be better off in law/finance/medicine by income in London. This isn't to stay the top software Devs don't get paid a lot, but it's a minority compared to the legions of high paid people in finance in London and the surrounding industries. | |
| ▲ | colesantiago a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | This is the very very small minority. Jobs in London pay less than peanuts and if you earn six figures in the UK, income tax takes half of it anyway even if you go to FAANG. |
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| ▲ | mupuff1234 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I think it's more the MBA-fication of the industry. There's no time for exploring and tinkering, it's all just chasing after the next ticket/okr. |
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| ▲ | godelski a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Funny thing being is that doing that exploring and tinkering is what makes them more money. Otherwise you're just stuck with trying to make a thinner iPhone and that doesn't seem to be going all that well... | |
| ▲ | StableAlkyne a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | The best model I've seen is the 3M-style "10% Time" Under that model, 10% of your time is completely up to you (within reason) to work on things that aren't your main project or scope. Works out well for R&D or more open ended positions, since you can have the flexibility to explore hunches without having to justify a whole project around it. |
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| ▲ | JustExAWS a day ago | parent | prev [-] |
| It always makes me groan when I see this sentiment like back in the olden times, people got into development for “passion”. Sure I was a hobbyist in the 80s programming in assembly language on four separate architectures by the time I graduated college in 1996 in CS. But absolutely no one in my graduating class did it for the “passion” we all did it because we needed to exchange money for food and shelter. The people jumping into tech during the first tech boom were definitely doing it for the money and the old heads I met back then programming on Dec Vax and Stratus VOS mainframes, clocked in, did their job and clocked out. |
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| ▲ | taude a day ago | parent | next [-] | | People doing it now for money aren't the same as you likely doing it for the money in the old day. When I went into comp-sci, it wasn't the cool path to riches it's been marketed as for the past 15 years. EDIT: you graduated around the same time as me. Sure everyone wanted jobs. But there were easier paths to getting a good job in '95/96 that cramming late night comp-sci work. Almost everyone in my class had grown up in the age of hacking around on Apple IIs, their first PCs, etc. No one just randomly ended up in the Comp Sci part of the university because they just wanted a job to make money. | | |
| ▲ | JustExAWS a day ago | parent [-] | | It wasn’t for the “riches” and there has never been a time where 90% of the developers working weren’t doing boring old enterprise dev making middle class wages. And most of the people in my class had their first exposure to computer programming at my state school in south GA was in college. | | |
| ▲ | saltcured a day ago | parent [-] | | Your experience is localized and perhaps more anecdotal than you admit. I also graduated and started my career in '96. But, I grew up in the SF Bay Area and did my CS major at UC Berkeley. I saw a lot more of the idealist types being described by others in these comments. It's not that we didn't expect to need jobs, but there was more passion-driven interest. Back then, it seemed like people "just in it for money" or to meet family expectations were more often going to pre-law or pre-med. I had a focus on programming languages in my undergrad studies and went into an academic R&D programming job, basically making tools for computational sciences. I've basically spent my whole career using and writing open source software. I've definitely seen a kind of culture shift where the frontier nature of our old R&D culture is getting drowned out by boring process. To me, it is largely the influx of cybersecurity compliance that is killing the old culture. The bureaucratic compliance overhead is antithetical to the small team prototyping approach that drove progress during most of my career. It inspires a sort of cargo cult risk-management process that seems more about appearances and plausible deniability than actual secure systems. | | |
| ▲ | JustExAWS a day ago | parent [-] | | You think most developers in the US were located “in the Bay Area”, went to Berkeley , and spent a career doing open source work in computational science and you call my experience “anecdotal”? Most developers from the beginning worked at banks, government, defense etc doing boring enterprise work. That has always been the case. They weren’t doing “research” writing COBOL for banks and the government. In 30 years, I’ve worked at 10 jobs for startups, boring big enterprise companies, BigTech and I’ve been working in consulting (3 of those were working full time in AWS’s consulting department) for five years working with developers from startups, enterprises and government. I think my exposure to a wide swath of the industry is a little bit more than working in California for 30 years… Even when I was younger and single, all of us would hang out after work - males and females and go to the bar, the club, the strip club (yes the women too - it was their idea they were mostly BAs and one programmer), and just really enjoy the money we were making. We were all making $50K-$80K back when you could easily get a house built in the burbs for $150k-$170K. Even as I got older, and change jobs in my mid 30s, by then my coworkers were mostly involved with other hobbies and our families. We weren’t even thinking about computers after work. | | |
| ▲ | saltcured a day ago | parent [-] | | Sorry, I didn't mean to discount your experience so much as add another microcosm to the mix. I think we're all anecdotal... But, I do think HN has a cultural fixation on the fabled Silicon Valley experience. This includes an attachment to (nostalia for?) the old university/startup axis. This used to be a more fluid exchange, rather than just the regular enterprise hiring pipeline. | | |
| ▲ | JustExAWS a day ago | parent [-] | | That’s just the thing - it never was on the meta level. The tech startup scene was a thing between the mid 90s and 2000 with the first dot com boom and even most of them outside of the hardware companies like Sun, Cisco, Intel and software at Netscape were not doing cutting edge for the time development. The startups were throwing dumb (or some premature) things at the wall with no business plan backed by VC money. The people at startups were definitely there for the money. No one had a “passion” to deliver pet food or groceries (Webvan) or early web advertising. Tech before the mid 90s were programmers building software on mainframes mostly doing boring things. You had the dark days between 2001-2008 before mobile, web apps, SaaS and high speed internet took off where all most people really could find were boring enterprise jobs. Back then, I was living in Atlanta and the dot com bust didn’t affect the local market at all. The banks, the airlines, the credit card processing companies were hiring boring Microsoft devs and Java devs like crazy. I’ve just seen too often where 90% of the devs who spend their career at boring old enterprises don’t have any idea what it’s like for those who are in the top 10% working at BigTech and adjacent while at the same time those 10% can’t fathom the fact that there are “Dark Matter developers” living their lives in tier 2 cities with their big houses in the burbs treating a job as just a job and most people always have. https://www.hanselman.com/blog/dark-matter-developers-the-un... I’ve been on both sides (and now in the middle doing strategy cloud consulting). I had my first house built in 2003 for $170K and even my second house built in the “good school system” in the burbs of Atlanta in 2016 for $335K. We moved and downsized three years ago. | | |
| ▲ | saltcured a day ago | parent [-] | | Yeah, my class was full of people going into those Bay Area companies you are dismissing as elite or non-representative. There were "always" startups in Silicon Valley, since that's the origin story of those big 90s companies. It didn't start with the dot-com boom. My friends who chased startups were not going after "foo, but on the web!" cliches. They were more esoteric hardware and software products. There was also a Small World effect where we kept in touch across these various R&D spaces. I don't mean to sound grandiose, but I think my cohort built up a lot of the open source that props up the current web world. I don't quite agree with the article this HN post links to, as I know a lot of that open source was written on salary. It wasn't all hobbyists in moms' basements. Whether we worked in government, university, or corporation, we had figured out ways to work on these things we wanted to work on and release to the world and be paid a wage to do it. I do feel like our microcosm is dying out. I'm not sure if it is a net change where the tech world is reverting to just the dominant corporate tech you describe, or if there is some replacement microcosm bubbling into existence and I'm just out of the loop now. | | |
| ▲ | JustExAWS a day ago | parent [-] | | By the number of developers and what they were doing at any time since the 70s, your experience isn’t representative. The startup tech bros back then weren’t doing things out of “passion”. Even in the 60s and 70s Jobs, Bill Gates, the Intel founders, Larry Ellison, Bushnell, Scott McNealy, and all of the early tech founders were driven by money. And whether startup founders had passion or not, once they took outside funding, money was all that mattered. |
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| ▲ | gfehhffvvv a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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