It's is immensely epistemically arrogant to so confidently opine on this topic when every single day you experience consciousness, which is impossible to explain at all using Physics and likely simply impossible to ever explain within that framework (Edward Witten, the greatest living Physicist, shares this belief).

▲

squigz 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

It's also extraordinarily arrogant - and rude - to state that atheists cannot deal with death. Certainly they face it with far more bravery than, say, someone who believes people don't actually die but instead go to a magical place in the sky.

▲

catigula 4 days ago | parent [-]

1. You've made the mistake of assuming I'm religious. I am not. This is my lived experience.

2. I think that, largely, materialism is a system that isn't merely arrogant (which it clearly is, as outlined above), but also unfulfilling. You can simply ignore the concept of death but if you choose to really wrestle/engage with it in a materialist framework you will see yourself staring into an abyssal, terrifying maw. I think most atheists don't engage with this concept because it's difficult to do so, just as many religious people believe in religion because it's convenient to do so. It's a fairly even cut.

I've already stated I'm not religious, which I'm not. I share the scientific view that human behavior is explicable so far as we can tell via mechanical/biological mechanisms, behaviors such as altruism not being explained because they are objectively good, but only being explained as preferences we've evolved because they were conducive to our genetic survival.

But, let me propose something from a scientific/rational point of view to you, a brief experiment sort of in this vein. Paraphrasing, Jesus said something like "if you do not believe me, believe the works".

I know this may seem a massive imposition, or horrific undertaking, or you may not be able to engage with it meaningfully, but, if you are able to humor me, I'd propose this:

Take all of the core precepts of what most religions might propose as being 'good' - there is variance but that's alright, humans disagree in every domain on everything - and apply them to your life.

Nip lies in the bud. Road-rage, rage at people on the internet? Let it go. Forgive those people and treat them well. Give people the benefit of the doubt, even people you hate.

You won't be perfect, but don't let that discourage you.

I'm encouraging this experiment because I believe you will "believe the works" and see that there is an element of the human experience that is genuinely transcendant and you can do these things not merely because they are nice or convenient and may be easy to do in the moment, but because they are hard to do, require constant correction and should be done as you are compelled to treat the gift of your own existence with care.

I suspect we are compelled to behave transcendently for our own good though my only proof is lived experience that merely behaving as if this is true is immensely fulfilling. Quite the coincidence.

▲

squigz 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

I'm unsure why you think I don't already try to live a "good" life.

To me, and most atheists I've discussed this with, death is not an "abyssal, terrifying maw" - it is simply the natural conclusion to life of any kind. It does not 'scare' me; it inspires me to live a good life, to help others, to die with the knowledge that I hopefully made the world a slightly better place.

▲

catigula 4 days ago | parent [-]

You're saying the words but I suspect you haven't interrogated them. Again, I'm not sharing my speculation, I'm sharing my actual experience and conclusions as an atheist. Anyways, it doesn't seem like we're getting anywhere with our dialogue, cheers.

Also I want to point out that it's clear that you don't practice what I outlined or you wouldn't have mocked the belief of religious people as "a magical place in the sky", hence cargo cult morality. It looks like morality to you, it may even feel like morality, but it demonstrably isn't. You haven't inconvenienced yourself at all, you merely did what felt good.

	▲	squigz 4 days ago \| parent [-]
		> Again, I'm not sharing my speculation, I'm sharing my actual experience and conclusions as an atheist. As am I, which you seem to refuse to believe for some reason. > Also I want to point out that it's clear that you don't practice what I outlined or you wouldn't have mocked the belief of religious people as "a magical place in the sky", hence cargo cult morality. It looks like morality to you, it may even feel like morality, but it demonstrably isn't. You haven't inconvenienced yourself at all, you merely did what felt good. Just because one does not live a perfectly moral life 100% of the time does not mean they are not moral. As you said, "You won't be perfect, but don't let that discourage you."

▲

weregiraffe 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

>Take all of the core precepts of what most religions might propose as being 'good' - there is variance but that's alright, humans disagree in every domain on everything - and apply them to your life.

A sum of a thousand imaginary friends is still imaginary.

▲

weregiraffe 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

>It's is immensely epistemically arrogant to so confidently opine on this topic when every single day you experience consciousness, which is impossible to explain at all using Physics and likely simply impossible to ever explain within that framework (Edward Witten, the greatest living Physicist, shares this belief).

Look, you asked for it by setting up secularism as the problem. The opposite of secularism is commonly understood to be religion, and religion is self-delusion. The fact that you can't explain consciousness via a materialistic framework, doesn't mean you have to invent an imaginary friend to explain it. It's like saying that since you can't fly an airplane to the Moon, you should take a train (with no wheels).