Remix.run Logo
arghwhat 6 days ago

Ah no need, corporate IT already make all URLs malicious looking through some microsoft "secure link" service, and constantly shows everyone shady looking prompts that constantly change and have cmd.exe windows flash in at random.

A phone call from Microsoft about my Norton anti-virus subscription putting me into debt that can only be settled with Nintendo gift cards bought in cash across 16 specific gas stations seem much more legitimate in comparison.

cameronh90 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

It’s a trade-off.

Most people are never going to check the links no matter how much you ask them to, and even if they did they wouldn’t know what to check for. But the tool Microsoft give you to check a link before opening it is that awful URL rewriter, which prevents the small minority who would check from being able to.

Similarly those flashing cmd windows are usually automatic update processes that Windows has no way to hide. Even some drivers that MS distribute through Windows Update do it. We could turn automatic updates off, but then nobody would update their software.

IT is rough because you’re often stuck between a rock and a hard place. On the one side you have users who don’t want to change their behaviour, on the other side you have industry leading vendors, that the SLT insist on using, that make it impossible to do the right thing or put the right thing on an Enterprise plan that the budget won’t permit. Then to top it off, there are usually compliance and insurance breathing down your neck forcing you to implement questionable best practices from the 90s, so you just have to do your best to limit the damage.

arghwhat 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

I do not believe this is a trade-off, I believe this behavior from corporate IT is a primary cause of the problem. I do agree that dealing with users is awful, but that doesn't justify solutions that only make things worse.

The flashing cmd.exe windows are not drivers from Windows Update - this could have been the case as drivers shipped with Windows Update is a total security nightmare running arbitrary code with administrative privileges upon hotplug - but in this context of managed devices, commonly from HP or Lenovo's corporate portfolio, it's usually additional products and changes pushed by group policy or random management software.

The often changing user prompts, looking like they were from some early 2000's hello world example, come from obscure and overlapping management software they remotely deploy which they change at will. You don't need a proprietary solution to remotely upgrade Google Chrome, just specify an enterprise policy with auto-update. You don't need a proprietary solution to prompt users and manage Windows Update, because you have... Windows Update.

The URL checker has no valid benefit, and makes it so people can never learn how to do it themselves. The browser performs the exact same checks with the exact same capabilities through its safe browsing stuff, and corporate IT often has network-level solutions too.

Corporate IT uses emails services that spoof domains and look suspicious, reversing all the phishing training they paid for.

Not to mention that Corporate IT might deploy network-wide solutions like Cisco Umbrella, which is a TLS Man-in-the-Middle attack where you install their root CA on all machines and let them control DNS to randomly redirect all traffic to their servers, effectively undermining the basis of all modern web security for the entire organization.

In general there's a fetish for buying products that has significant negative impact to security, user experience and possibility of training users, usually for the purpose of feigning progress and meeting some targets. Say, they had a ransomware incident, and now they're buying every ransomware product for a few years. Stuff with such buggy kernel code that it deadlocks and makes it impossible to create new processes until you hard reboot. I'm sure that's not a security problem!

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

> Cisco Umbrella

My current employer was somewhat recently purchased by a large, publicly-traded company and I had this installed on my work machine. Suddenly DoH was forced off by administrator policy and I had to use some specific internal IP for DNS. Which isn't strictly less secure but let's just say I would, even for my large, publicly-traded business, trust Mullvad more than Cisco.

TechnicalVault 4 days ago | parent [-]

The stupidity of the whole thing is that by creating these MiTM servers, they're creating a single point of security failure. Anyone who then compromises one of those servers, can with a little care, trick the entire organisation into downloading compromised executables from what they think is a trusted site.

Also when you're snooping on a conversation between myself or one of my servers and one of your employees you are impersonating me and intercepting my communications too! I did not sign your AUP to agree to this. Also if I happen to be in a two-party consent state at the time, and you're intercepting a VoIP call/Teams/Zoom with me, that's a crime.

arghwhat 2 days ago | parent [-]

Imagine the legal consequences too, when the services you host make sent personal data to an (otherwise valid) data processor, but surprise the network-wide policy sent traffic went through a random third party that is not part of the Data Processing Agreement and privacy policy given to the end-user/data subject...

cameronh90 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Well I can't speak for everyone in IT or every situation, but this does not match what I've experienced.

IT is basically being a system integrator with a load of systems that don't want to integrate. Corporate don't accept no for an answer. You need to bend things in ways they don't want to bend to get them to fit.

> The flashing cmd.exe windows are not drivers from Windows Update

The first thing I do with any new corpo laptop is completely wipe it down to the firmware, and clean the drive entirely to make sure the stench of Dell, Lenovo and HP is as cleansed as it's possible to be, then install Windows from a fresh ISO downloaded straight from Microsoft.

Then a few hours after reinstalling Windows again, the Lenovo shitware drivers are back. Not the software suites, at least, but the crappy drivers that throw up cmd prompts and have un-suppressible dialog boxes telling you to update the BIOS but look like malware and ask for the admin password. Check Windows Update and it will show that it has installed a bunch of stuff like "Lenovo - System" and "LG Electronics - Extension".

Recently there's a push to dropship directly to customers and use Autopilot, with some vendors now offering "Corporate-Ready" images, but most IT depts still prefer to get hands-on first because of how flaky that is, plus even the corporate ready image still comes with shitware, just less of it.

But anyway, even assuming it isn't coming via WU, and is one of those Lenovo bootkits, what else are we to do? Half the laptop won't work without drivers. Most of the other laptop manufacturers are aimed at gamers and fall apart in about a year. More recently I've been trying to move towards Microsoft Surface devices, and have found they're a much cleaner experience on the software, but have been finding the hardware reliability is quite terrible. I'm hoping that Framework's business programme turns out to be a success, but right now there are just no good options.

> You don't need a proprietary solution to remotely upgrade Google Chrome, just specify an enterprise policy with auto-update.

Sure. Chrome can be auto-updated and you have good controls over how that rolls out, so you can designate test users. But it's one of the few bits of software written "properly", including for example a Windows service that can run Chrome updates on behalf of a non-admin user, and they've actually provided GPOs to configure it. Even then it sometimes gets stuck and stops updating. So, we still need something like PMPC/Robopack/PSADT to update all the apps that either have a broken auto-update mechanism or just don't have one in the first place. We would also need to keep the original installer up to date ourselves, and for some software you're talking a day of fixing your manual packaging scripts every month, trying to work out which undocumented flags the MSI accepts, whether they've renamed the registry key they check to disable the non-functional auto-updates this version, etc.

Nowadays, we're starting to see more adoption of things like winget where the vendor themselves are packaging things in a way that is suitable for mass deployment, using a standard mechanism that Windows itself can use to auto-update the apps. This is a massive improvement for everyone, but I'd say only <10% of most corporate/LOB apps are available this way yet. Hopefully over the next few years we'll see more adoption, as this would solve a big chunk of the pain of corporate IT.

One of the worst vendors for writing stuff that doesn't use the standard mechanisms to install or update, incidentally, is Microsoft.

> The URL checker has no valid benefit, and makes it so people can never learn how to do it themselves. The browser performs the exact same checks with the exact same capabilities through its safe browsing stuff, and corporate IT often has network-level solutions too.

Nobody ever does it themselves which is the point. Also, if you're opening it on a corporate computer, current versions of Outlook do actually show you the original URL when you hover.

But anyway let's say we just rely on the browser check: what if it's a developer who's modified their browser settings? What if it's someone opening it from a personal phone? You could get rid of the URL rewriting and just ban users from using personal devices or modifying browser settings, but then you're going to war with senior executives who insist on keeping their work email on their personal phone. Almost all users don't even notice the URL rewriting, but it has prevented quite a lot of phishing attacks on personal devices that may otherwise have been successful. That's a pretty good trade-off for something that almost nobody notices is even happening.

Indeed, network TLS interception which would often have detected stuff in the past, but many corps have moved away from that now because as you point out, TLS interception is pretty crap. It breaks the increasing numbers of apps that use cert pinning, tends to be full of security flaws, and they don't work off-network unless you send all traffic to a central server or deploy it to every PoP, which is rare outside of megacorps, meaning internet experience is slow and flaky. Cisco Umbrella is a big suite with lots of other stuff too, but they do still push their TLS interception. MS advise not to use it, and the weight of opinion is shifting towards using URL protection built into the antimalware stack now, but unless we have full control over all clients accessing email, that doesn't eliminate the use case for URL rewriting.

In any case, this isn't something external we've bought in on top of the standard Microsoft 365 stack, it's part of Defender that Microsoft enable by default in their secure baseline. Going against vendor recommendations is opening yourself up to a big liability if it turns out something gets through that it would have caught.

> Corporate IT uses emails services that spoof domains and look suspicious

You'd be surprised how often vendors just directly email users without you ever having approved it or having been informed that they were going to send an email so you can pre-warn them. Again, Microsoft are one of the worst for doing this (e.g. sending emails from "User's Full Name <no-reply@sharepoint-online.com>"), but Google and Apple also do it.

> Say, they had a ransomware incident, and now they're buying every ransomware product for a few years. Stuff with such buggy kernel code that it deadlocks and makes it impossible to create new processes until you hard reboot.

Any company that is just stacking loads of conflicting antimalware products on each endpoint is clearly incompetent and not something I've seen, and I've seen some pretty shocking stuff.

There was obviously the Crowdstrike issue, but that wasn't as you describe, and as much as I'm not personally a fan of Crowdstrike, that was one major incident it caused, but you're not comparing to the counterfactual where these systems didn't exist and 0days can just spread across the network faster than an under-resourced IT dept can stop them.

I'm unusual in that I moved more into IT and cybersecurity stuff from dev, so you know, I do have sympathy for how shit this can be as a user and a developer. I have a lot of hot takes about the shitty state of technology today and how it trains the users to do dangerous things. But believe me when I say this: if there was a better way of doing it, I would be the first one adopting it. There isn't, though. At least not one open to those of us outside of Big Tech with the budget to essentially write their own security stack.

Den_VR 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I sure do miss the days before browser makers conspired to make it near impossible to check the certs when there’s a certificate related error. “Most people are never going to check properly” is a poor excuse.

mobiuscog 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

There is an easy answer. Give employees two computers.

One is the 'business' one. Mostly locked down, with checks in place.

The other is on a different network, isolated from all business functions, and they can do what they want but must never use it for work data, just like their phones (that everyone knows they use for social media etc. in the day).

Sure, you still have to deal with copying from one to the other (but there are solutions for that if critical, and much easier to secure).

It sounds crazy, but air-gaps are largely proven and it also means that employees feel less oppressed.

Now I realise, even ignoring the cost, businesses won't want this, as perish the thought their employees may do anything other than work. But I suspect it would actually stop more attacks and issues than otherwise and maybe... just maybe.. employees feel as if they're actually human.

cameronh90 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

It's not really an easy answer as (1) it doesn't stop phishing attacks hitting work emails so isn't really relevant anyway, (2) most people, executives especially, don't want to cart multiple devices around, which is why we now have to deal with the security nightmare that is supporting work stuff on BYOD phones, (3) I don't work for a SV company with the budget to buy everyone two laptops, and if we did, honestly I think most people would prefer a better single laptop than two mediocre ones. Besides, most people just treat their phone as their personal portable device now. The odd person brings their own laptop.

Developers are the exception here, where usually they'd prefer to develop on a machine with minimal BS running, even if it means carrying around an ultraportable in addition to their development workstation laptop.

dweekly 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Your "crazy" proposition is exactly the reality at many companies: the work computer is increasingly isolated from the Internet. At my last employer their game plan for employees was to move the whole web to a whitelist approach - if you want to browse the web freely, use your personal computer or personal phone.

So most of us carted around a work laptop (connected to corp WiFi) a personal laptop (on guest WiFi or tethered) a work phone and a personal phone.

In other news, you should never ever MDM enroll your personal phone with a work BYOD policy.

sigwinch 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Just call one business internal and the other one LLM inference. You don’t want AI crafting packets on business internal.

cedilla 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

All that anti-phishing training that taught us to look closely at the URL and now it's all just safelinks.protection.outlook.com

Workaccount2 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

My It department does mandatory phishing training every year, and then for the "test" e-mails, they spoof a domain and whitelist the DMARC on their side so it goes through.

So we get e-mails from @microsoft.com and it's only if you dig in the metadata that you see it failed authentication. The only tell in the e-mail is checking the URL, which doesn't tell you much because tons of regular e-mails use tracker redirects too. They even send emails from our own domain or the domain of our payroll company.

I won't type out my rant, but our IT department is a few guys who couldn't figure out what to do when their competitive xbox FIFA 2006 dreams failed, heard IT pays a lot with not much work, and then sat through the certs.

stronglikedan 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

> heard IT pays a lot with not much work

I want to live in this fantasy world!

(Our IT dept is so overworked that I go out of my way to work around them purely out of empathy.)

throwawaylaptop 6 days ago | parent [-]

Every industry has its bad employers and good.

I know teachers that make $50k and no pension, with others making $93k, halfways to their pension at 35yrs old, get almost 12 weeks off total a year, and work from 8am to 3pm (1 hour lunch, 1 hour for 'prep' aka Netflix) and home by 335, and no, they basically never do any work at home. She technically has students (10 year olds she sends links to for their chrome books) about 5x53 minutes a day.

fair_enough 6 days ago | parent [-]

That sounds like a good semi-retirement gig just to get out of the house for a little while. If you're teaching the tech-related electives rather than mandatory core courses, the students are likely a lot more pleasant to deal with. I took German just to get away from the all the kids taking Spanish or French who were just there because they have to get their foreign language credit.

throwawaylaptop 5 days ago | parent [-]

Yes, just what we need, retired people with a whole career of making income behind themselves taking another decent entry level job someone one just out of college can get. (No teaching credential needed for substitute teachers usually)

fair_enough 5 days ago | parent [-]

If a semi-retired engineer with 2-4 decades of work experience makes a better public high school STEM teacher, then I hope a lot more engineers do it as a semi-retirement gig.

The aspiring career schoolteachers will just have to find a job in a field that is short-staffed, like registered nurses or one of the trades. I'm sure that comes across as "let them eat cake" to some Bernie moron, but going back to school for 6 months is small potatoes, and doing a little market research before making big financial decisions like choosing your college major in the first place is basic adult responsibility.

If we apply the "lump of labor" fallacy everywhere else honestly and consistently, we would have to be opposed to immigration and trade because "those damn foreigners" went and "took er jerbs".

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRtkJaZ...

throwawaylaptop 4 days ago | parent [-]

I am 100% opposed to immigration too.

fair_enough a day ago | parent [-]

You're opposed to immigration until you personally can have greater freedom or a higher standard of living somewhere else.

throwawaylaptop 9 hours ago | parent [-]

No doubt I could enjoy a better life somewhere in the world. But I dont expect that country to let me move there and give me their opportunities.

bongodongobob 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

No one in IT wants to deal with that stuff. Upper management requires it for compliance and cyber insurance.

BobbyTables2 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

My company does similar phishing thing.

Except their system adds extra headers related to the phishing… Wonder if they even know…

Thus, I created an Outlook rule to automatically move them to a dedicated folder… (;->

fair_enough 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

My university pulled the same BS 10-15 years ago. The worst part is that they sent the "test" email from the same email address they use for all of their other announcements, and then had the gall to send an automated "shame on you" reply if you clicked their link.

Knowing what I know now about the IT staff and professors and knowing in hindsight only 3-4 of my CS classes were of any relevance to my work, I seriously regret not cheating my way through undergrad. I wish I could take back the time I wasted on Java and spend it with my N64.

cameron_b 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Hey, simulating the hack is a lot better than using some canned tool with blatant knowbe4 urls.

Workaccount2 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

The problem is that if you click one of the links, you need to do (well sort of) the hour long phishing class and testing again. But of course, nowhere in the class do they say anything about not trusting e-mails from a known safe domain.

Whats funny though is that if you click the link in a phishing test, they will e-mail you to complete the training. But there is no enforcement (general management doesn't care), so you just get a daily e-mail telling you that you are overdue. It also however stops them from sending the fake phishing emails. So a bunch of us clicked the phishing link, marked the "do your training" e-mail as spam, and now never get bothered.

arcfour 5 days ago | parent [-]

Where I was, they tracked who didn't do it, and came down on them, then their manager, and then it became an HR issue. Only one or two people went down the HR path, and then they did the training pretty quickly. Of course it didn't start harsh, just "hey, a reminder, we are tracking this and you need to do it" but when you blatantly ignored it the response got more firm.

Also, the last one I took they talked about phishing using a malicious Google docs link IIRC.

Anecdotes don't mean you know everything about a system.

201984 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

For anyone subjected to these, they usually contain the header X-PHISHTEST which you can create a filter for, and then either send them to trash or put them in a special folder so you can report them later.

bongodongobob 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

You can use whatever urls you like.

syllogism 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In Europe there are legitimate and extremely established services that require you to input your bank login details into something other than your bank's website. It's madness.

dtech 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

There's no legitimate case for that since PSD2 (mandatory since 2020). Are you not confused by that? PSD2 doesn't share your credentials.

I'm an European and have never needed to use nor encountered those services.

siva7 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

PSD2 is just MFA, it doesn't prevent shady companies still asking your login credentials, even if you must authorize that login from your official banking app. Klarna is one of many examples - they ask me for my bank credentials on their own website so they can crawl all my finance data .

bradfa 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

Plaid and Finicity do this in the USA for some linking of banking to other financial products. Feels SO insecure. Connecting my credit union checking account through Plaid even ironically brought me to a login page which explicitly states I should never give my banking password to any other entity.

If I need to link my accounts and these services are the only choice then I change my banking passwords immediately after.

chrisweekly 6 days ago | parent [-]

I thought Plaid used OAuth2. Hmm.

karel-3d 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

Plaid whole business model is that it uses OAuth2 on banks that support it and export the data through APIs; and for the banks that don't, they ask for name/password and scrape it through "fake" web browser that mimick user behavior on the backend.

(I worked for a Plaid competitor. The long-term goal for all similar companies is of course to use OAuth and APIs, because it breaks less often; but since the banks don't offer that, scraping it is!)

_boffin_ 6 days ago | parent [-]

MX?

cpburns2009 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Plaid asks for your raw bank credentials so that it can scrape up data. That's why I've always refused to use it.

WOTERMEON 6 days ago | parent [-]

I really hope to never be in the position where I have to use it

StopDisinfo910 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I have a Klarna account I opened when their flex account rate was amongst the best you could get and I don't remember them ever asking for my bank credential.

I think Bankin' used to before PSD2 and to get a bit more information from some banks but then again Bankin' is a financial agreggator whose explicit purpose is crawling your banking data so it's not too surprising to see them asking for your credentials.

raisaguys 6 days ago | parent [-]

[dead]

FinnKuhn 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

So does Paypal nowadays when you want to open a new account...

dcminter 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Where a bank doesn't offer compliant APIs, screen-scraping integrations are explicitly allowed. Not sure how common that is at this point.

_boffin_ 6 days ago | parent [-]

Thousands and thousands of institutions, they scrape.

dcminter 6 days ago | parent [-]

Not sure what you mean specifically, but generally the organisations doing screen-scraping¹ would prefer to use compliant APIs as they don't require anything like as much maintenance (bank adds a button to the login flow? Kaboom! Integration is broken...) or resources (e.g. running headless browsers).

Some markets are pretty much exclusively compliant - I don't think there are any Nordic banks that don't have fully PSD2 compliant APIs for example whereas, if I remember rightly, the Spanish banks were all over the place. I'm fairly out of date though, so things may have improved or exceptions for scraping expired.

¹ Note that I'm talking exclusively about banking integrations here, not AI nonsense.

fancyfredbot 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Care to mention what these legitimate and established services are?

JLCarveth 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

Plaid is used by a lot of the major Canadian banks.

raudette 6 days ago | parent [-]

Flinks is also an often-used aggregator in Canada.

"Connecting" savings accounts from EQ Bank or Wealthsimple to an account at TD Bank requires providing TD credentials to Flinks.

joshuaissac 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Sofort used to do this. I don't know if they still do.

6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
FinnKuhn 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Paypal, Klarna

didsomeonesay 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Name and shame: Klarna did this.

Not sure if they still do because i stay well clear of them.

BlindEyeHalo 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I find this hard to believe and have never seen that ever.

jeltz 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

It used to be common 5 years ago before PSD2.

brettermeier 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Don't understand the downvotes, i never saw that too, and i am shopping online very often.

consp 6 days ago | parent [-]

If you used the first gen "pay later" services they'd scrape you for "compliance checking" or simply mask it as a transaction which is actually just personal information scraping.

Most of the times you did not see it, as it's obfuscated as a part of the transaction.

They are also the companies complaining a lot about the "failure" of the PSD standards since it limits how much and how obfuscated they can scrape everything (and there are records).

BrandoElFollito 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Are you talking about the possibility to pay via your bank account directly on a checkout page? If so this is the bank page you are using.

Can you give some examples?

bombcar 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Multiple US hospitals and insurance companies use genuine links like doctor-services-for-u.biz - infuriating.

PeterStuer 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Are you sure? Never seen any such thing.

jeltz 6 days ago | parent [-]

It used to be common before PSD2 but I have personally not seen it for some years.

p_l 6 days ago | parent [-]

It seems mainly localized to Germany

fp64 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I find it very difficult to inspect the email headers in Outlook, I think for the iOS app it's not even possible. It's almost like they want to make it less transparent and secure

devoutsalsa 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I recently reported an email with “glint.email.microsoft” as a phishing attempt, but it turned out to be a corporate survey.

Thorrez 6 days ago | parent [-]

Well it's probably hard for anyone except Microsoft to get a domain with the .microsoft TLD.

milkshakes 6 days ago | parent [-]

what percentage of the online population do you expect to understand this?

greengreengrass 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

I have often wondered why we don’t see more usage of the brand gTLDs, which many of these big firms own. I muse that this is (part of) the reason why – there simply isn’t the understanding or recognition outside tech circles (or even within tech circles) to comprehend that it is possible to use such a gTLD without a conventional .com or similar suffix tacked on the end. I tend to see it localised to use for marketing micro sites that do not ask for credentials so have no need to establish user trust, or occasionally internal technical uses that will never touch the typical customer’s eyeballs.

The other reason I hypothesise is that corporate big brother snooping systems that have whitelists for their trusted services – with entries like mail.google.com or calendar.google.com – are simply too painful at this point for big tech to break for their customers by dropping the .com suffix, so big tech doesn’t bother.

No hard data on any of that, though.

Thorrez 6 days ago | parent [-]

I don't think you can put cookies on a TLD. So if Google used mail.google and calendar.google , the login system would be more complex, because they can't share cookies.

arghwhat 6 days ago | parent [-]

Modern auth systems do not work by exposing multiple services on a single domain with shared cookies.

Instead, they authenticate using a common auth service (say, auth.google), which by virtue of being a single domain can persist shared cookies for all its consumers. This would yield a valid token (possibly a JWT) that the authenticating application can then use however it would like, including as a cookie on the application's own domain.

Whenever you go to a service that temporarily sends you to a different login domain (often just immediately redirection you back), this is why.

Thorrez 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

Some modern auth systems. Not all.

I created a separate Chrome profile, and logged in to gmail. Then I disabled javascript, then deleted all my google.com cookies (but left my mail.google.com cookies). Then I reenabled javascript and visited mail.google.com again. I was logged out. So Google is using the google.com cookies.

6 days ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
Thorrez 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yeah, it does make things more difficult in terms of teaching people a simple rule. Instead of "ends with @<company>.com", the rule is "ends with @<company>.com or .<company>".

OTOH, there were probably a lot of places already violating the "ends with @<company>.com" rule, e.g. by using subdomains, or even other domains. So very little of the online population was likely using the rule. And with email spoofing, even "ends with @<company>.com" can't be relied on to ensure the email is legit. So the rule of "don't click links in emails" is the only foolproof rule. Though you also need to add "don't copy and paste things from emails".

arghwhat 6 days ago | parent [-]

Yay for third-party email services that From: be a no-reply address from an entirely different company (and therefore only authenticity validation for that company), and a Reply-To: to some obscure mailbox from the supposed sender. I'm sure that makes perfect sense to most people.

> So the rule of "don't click links in emails" is the only foolproof rule.

The only truly foolproof rule is "don't open emails". Also helps a lot on mental health and associated expenditures!

r_lee 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

legit.

I could imagine something like x-mucrosoft.email etc. being used and the users would just be like well there was email.microsoft so same thing!

jcims 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Outlook has a rule filter for header content.

Just saying I haven't failed a phishing test in ~10 years.

jsmith99 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

My IT department use the official Microsoft phishing test. The emails arrive in inbox with 0 headers. (There's also a helpful Microsoft page of all the dodgy sounding domains they've registered for this.)

prmoustache 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I just don't check my emails anymore. If it is important, people will complain on teams that nobody answer with some sort of urgency and then I'll look for it specifically.

sciencejerk 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Mind sharing your filter rules? KnowBe4 uses X-PHISHTEST header and I think I saw Proofpoint using something similiar a few years back

jcims 6 days ago | parent [-]

Straight from the source: https://help.proofpoint.com/Proofpoint_Essentials/Security_A... xD

The vast majority of security controls are designed for the careless and the clueless.

monocularvision 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I did this and it worked for a few months before word got to security who then forced everyone to remove the rule.

btbuildem 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

My little hobby is reporting any and all emails about compliance, training, etc (basically anything with actions in them) as phishing and then escalating their responses as "social engineering". It's fun!

dogleash 6 days ago | parent [-]

Im in the security alias and that happens unironically every time the company rolls out a new external service.

Now sketchy emails are preceded by an equally sketchy “it’s ok” email from IT.

fphilipe 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In addition to making the link look shady, it adds considerable lag to opening the link.

I'm using Finicky[1] on Mac to rewrite the URL by extracting the original URL from the query params[2].

1: https://github.com/johnste/finicky

2: https://github.com/fphilipe/dotfiles/blob/31e3d18fe5f51b2fd8...

touristtam 5 days ago | parent [-]

Nice, I use finicky as well, but now and again I have to change a rule or even add a new one. pisses me right off. Anyway thank you for sharing your dotfiles.

omh 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

And Microsoft own the client, so they are the one company who don't need to do this!

If you really want to check every time someone clicks on a link then you can do this in the client and keep the visible link the same for the end user.

But instead there are different teams working on this in Outlook, Teams, Exchange, Defender and god knows where else.

(I'm one of the people in corporate IT trying to turn this off and often struggling)

beanjuiceII 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

we must work at the same enterprise