I'm not a fan, but in what was is this, or any other topic, undemocratic to have debates and votes on?

The sanctions politicians should face for bringing up unpopular topics should be that they don't get voted for.

> These EU politicians endangering freedom, justice and democracy must be held accountable, with the most powerful punishments available.

Yes. Vote them out. Keep raising it.

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LikesPwsh 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

This topic is undemocratic because it's part of the constant attempts to rephrase and resubmit the same unpopular proposal.

It's p-hacking democracy. If a proposal has 5% chance of passing just resubmit it twenty times under different names with minor variations.

It wastes time that lawmakers could spend on proposals that the public actually want.

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Arnt 4 days ago | parent [-]

It hasn't been resubmitted yet, has it? The proponents keep it alive without putting it to an actual vote, AIUI. They try to wait until they think they have a majority, and keep their proposal ready for a vote on short order before their majority dissipates.

Which is many things, I' might call it cynical, but it doesn't seem undemocratic.

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Xelbair 4 days ago | parent [-]

This is at least 3rd time similar measure has been tried in EU parliament, form my memory.

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izacus 4 days ago | parent [-]

And the fact that it didn't pass tells you something didn't it?

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Xelbair 3 days ago | parent [-]

yeah, for now - it was always close. And they need to succeed only once.

the issue is that they try to push it despite citizen protests, and each time they try people just grow more fatigued.

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Jensson 3 days ago | parent [-]

> yeah, for now - it was always close. And they need to succeed only once.

What do you mean, this can just be reverted it isn't like these laws can't be changed. Currently most people don't vote in EU elections, so you don't need much to affect those even if just 10% hates this proposal and go out to vote it would massively effect the outcome.

Therefore its much harder for unpopular things to persist at EU level than country level so far. Until EU has stable parties that is, but currently there is nothing stable at EU level, a tiny thing can change it all.

	▲	Xelbair 3 days ago \| parent [-]
		It is vastly harder to revert a law that entrenches whoever is in power.

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rollulus 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Yes. Vote them out. Keep raising it.

How do I vote out hostile countries? I’m Dutch, what can I do with my vote to have effects on Denmark, which seems to be the biggest proponent of this BS?

	▲	munksbeer 4 days ago \| parent [-]
		> How do I vote out hostile countries? I’m Dutch, what can I do with my vote to have effects on Denmark, which seems to be the biggest proponent of this BS? The same way you can vote out other politicians in your own country - you can't. Assuming you live in (say) Amsterdam, you have no right or control of who people from other regions of the Netherlands vote for.

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FirmwareBurner 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>Yes. Vote them out. Keep raising it.

OK. How do I vote out Ursula vd Leyen?

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nickslaughter02 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

She's facing two more no confidence votes in October. You just need to convince all 720 members of European Parliament from 27 countries to get rid of her and her commission. Easy.

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FirmwareBurner 4 days ago | parent [-]

You mean the exact people that put her there in the first place despite her unanimous lack of popularity in Europe and especially in her home country of Germany where she failed upwards?

Mr. Stark, I don't feel so good about this type of democracy.

	▲	nickslaughter02 4 days ago \| parent [-]
		Yes. The same fractions which put her there (EPP and friends) will also pick another puppet who will do their bidding.

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eqvinox 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Next European Parliament election will be in 2029.

Edit: there was a copypaste of voting requirements here, from https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/summary/voting-ri.... This is apparently wrong; you can also vote if you're not residing in the EU, only EU citizen. (I thought this was the case, and that link not saying that made me suspicious.) How it is possible that they've put up incorrect information on voting rights, I have no clue.

Actual reference, this time legal text: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A...

Any person who, on the reference date:

(a) is a citizen of the Union within the meaning of the second subparagraph of Article 8 (1) of the Treaty;

(b) is not a national of the Member State of residence, but satisfies the same conditions in respect of the right to vote and to stand as a candidate as that State imposes by law on its own nationals,

shall have the right to vote […]

So either citizenship or residency is sufficient.

	▲	FirmwareBurner 4 days ago \| parent [-]
		I was talking about voting for the position held by Ursula, the president of EU commission, not the EU parliamentary elections.

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aleph_minus_one 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> How do I vote out Ursula [von der] Leyen?

This can only be done indirectly.

Under https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2024/11/27/which-meps-bac... you can at least find a chart ("Von der Leyen 2 Commission: How political groups voted") how the political groups in the European parliament voted regarding Ursula von der Leyen's second mandate as European Commission President.

	▲	FirmwareBurner 4 days ago \| parent [-]
		>This can only be done indirectly. So the short answer is "YOU can't".

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fhd2 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

She was elected by the European parliament. As an EU citizen, you elect that one.

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nickslaughter02 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

You vote for a few people from your country to become MEPs. Anything beyond that is out of your control.

	▲	munksbeer 4 days ago \| parent [-]
		> You vote for a few people from your country to become MEPs. Anything beyond that is out of your control. Just like in your country's own elections.

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jokethrowaway 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

after how many layers of voting does democracy just becomes plain oligarchy?

	▲	fhd2 4 days ago \| parent [-]
		Fair question. I'm personally a big fan of what I believe is called direct democracy - getting the populace to vote on a more fine-grained level and individual issues. Not just generic representatives with a bucket list of stuff they say they do and what you suspect they'll actually do. I admit that the EU level feels quite indirect, but I would still carefully call it democratic.

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Xelbair 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

How do i vote out representatives not from my country? In this case my country is vehemently opposed to this.

How do i vote out representatives if all of them support the measure despite it being unpopular in my country, no matter the faction? That was the case with centralized copyright checking.

EU parliament, and especially EC, are so far removed from any form of accountability, that frankly votes are almost irrelevant - same factions form no matter who's there, and EC runs on rotation.

Lobbying takes prime spot over votes.

EU is sitting in the middle ground between federation and trade union... and we get downsides of both systems.